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Deep into the Apple Developer AgreementsApple recently rewrote its rulebook for developers. It reversed a ruling that blocked developers from using all but a very few programming languages for iPhone apps. It also made public for the first time the guidelines it uses for deciding if apps will...
Hi everyone this is reporters roundtable I'm -- -- and San Cisco this is our weekly podcast where we dive into a single tech topic a week. Today we're talking at the Apple app store developer agreement on September ninth Apple rewrote its ruble -- developers. In its revised developer agreement it reversed a ruling that blocked developers from using all but -- very few programming languages for iPhone apps. And it also made public for the first time the guidelines -- uses for deciding if apps will be allowed into the app store or rejected. Today we're going to talk about these changes in hopefully some depth in the next thirty minutes our guest for what's going to be a good discussion I'm sure our first. Brian X Chen of wired dot com who covers. Hello thanks for coming in right cover these issues for that publication and we also have a real live -- developer with us here in the room. David Macintosh of redux which is a social video discovery app which I've covered before actually very good -- He's also behind the iPhone access in game gun man. Gentlemen thank you very much for -- a -- -- -- for evidence that if you. Really appreciate it let's that -- so there's two things to talk about there's the developer agreement and then there's the app store guidelines and they were both provides that about the same time yet. Let's talk about the developer's agreement first and this is the document that says. Where the biggest reported change was that -- was the relaxation of the Apple the April band. I'm using cross compile errors like Adobe -- explain what happened. First and April and now the changes. So at the time -- that grew. And I think that effectively bans it till the from a using a cross compile -- -- a flash -- feature in iPhone package or even. I meant to compile it flash code into iPhone applications. And so that it it it -- whole controversy like you know how can you. Decide to control how people decide how to create their own applications you can't tell people -- -- make their own applications and there's their key there's a huge controversy over that over that and so recently. With the revised guidelines. The relax federal and said you can use third party tool -- you -- to have approval from Apple. Every time and that effectively be -- opens the door at believed to people like Adobe. So did this affect you David and how you were developing your applications and anyway. No it it didn't affect us and my suspicion is that it probably doesn't affect most app developers directly in that. You know flash is a great language for developing stuff on the web but when it comes developing a great iPhone -- you really -- to -- control in in the entire experience from this you know from the kind of the bottom of the top and so. Most developers I know and I know we do we we kind of developed entirely in unity -- native languages post objectives the and -- so so when the ruling came out in I wasn't there wasn't too surprised because you know the best thing now can really do for its developer ecosystem. It's gonna protect the quality of apps in the store because the reason why the app store it's so much better terms of monetization. That -- and I've heard things like connect he times as much money it in the app store Apple's ups -- and you can Android just because people pay for more stuff. Is because he had all this all the all the apps in the Apple Store are high quality or at least most of them are the ones they service. It's actually they made a lot of sense for developers you'd want. All the flash developers that had flash apps for the web in a re -- -- their optimum you know kind of inundating apps -- with thousands of things he'd already seen out on what sites so. It if if your opinion as a developer was fairly commonplace that we wanna build an Athlon -- so we wanna make money. Than this I'm. This change that Apple made back in April would be like an okay whenever. But nonetheless it only took in only six months they went back. Right who why did that happen so we had some some developer who's pretty close to Adobe I think who actually told us -- the record ahead -- be talking that's but. That the FTC was actually thinking about. -- -- anti competition -- there and it actually makes sense you know I mean it would be the only thing that would I think push Apple in this direction -- mean Steve Jobs party put -- -- long letter now why he wasn't allowing. Third party tools to be used to create sort of -- platform in the app store. And they're all pretty strong reasons and they're all -- technical reasons that actually made some sense so for handed back down on this it it would had to be something -- -- with government regulation. Then there's the -- potentially that another reason it's not talked about which is that you know a lot of ads on the leopard built in flash a lot of you know agencies build you know advertisements and -- yet. And you know it's it's really hard a lot of agencies to completely retool those that's from the ground up when enough wanna move those to the a -- to -- for. On and you know -- Apple's I had program with I think the million dollar minimum -- -- Apple does the -- the -- for them. On the -- else out there it's it's gonna painful process and so I can see scenario in which there is at providers out there that wanted to -- to take the flash code. And automatically converted to something that works. On the iPhone without the the actual advertising -- to make any changes that makes it kind of sensitive because it you know allows for more ad dollars to make -- win the iPhone. Which ultimately benefits both developers and Apple. Threat is Steve Jobs seems to have been on a campaign to. Basically kill Adobe. With what he's been saying about flash and then this ruling back in April which can then relented on what does this change this September change re allowing. Third party -- from platforms to create them Apple apps. What does this mean for -- Sending it basically lets Adobe back into the game I mean previously there is no way -- flash is not allowed on the iPhone it all -- plugin it's not allowed -- can't run. Flash -- you can't -- flash advertisements so. You know that Adobe was heading toward this this this area where it's like it that it participate in the most I think the most popular mobile platform right now which in the long term would probably. Posts on the issues for their future. -- -- Furthermore I mean with allowing people to just cross compile flash applications into -- and applications such -- basically letting Adobe. Back into the platform or is giving them room in the -- to begin -- and -- -- actually. Insert effect that this it's hard tolerate now because we haven't really seen very many applications that had been cross compiled. Flash into the -- so -- it strikes me that with with these changes with respect report that developers are kind of call in the middle. Right. Out of you doesn't you don't feel that way it looked like your opponent Steve Jobs machine and putting words that you're mapping -- -- -- and wrong. I think any developer that builds on another platform recognizes that ultimately they're going to be at the -- about -- right you're making that that you're saying okay. Yes you know the iPhone is a great opportunity right now but maybe two years will change -- -- and developers with the same thing but it's. So you know in the cases you know the company them founder of redux you know we've got -- -- a bunch of different -- farm -- website. You know kind of the whole point of the companies that federated syndicate you know kind of of value to you wherever people are whether it's -- -- hear the phone or you know eventually Android. Com and so you know for me it doesn't affect affected that much but there's a lot of developers out there. That you know bill out specifically for the iPhone a lot of game companies -- -- -- pretty heavy bets on the -- continuing to grow. It's I think for them -- it's probably a little bit more stressful because Apple makes -- change that interferes directly with their business then you know they really have no other recourse except to start developing. It on another platform and but I think a lot of these changes don't. You really affect most developers that much I mean some the restrictions are gonna talk about later probably have a little bit more impact on but in terms of -- flash compiler. Apart from Kennedy the -- scenario mentioned worry makes it easier -- -- the kimono platform I don't really see that having an effect on most developers -- the ones that you know interact with. Whether other change that the developer agreement that -- important to developers. I think the review board. It's really interest are well let's get into that and that that's topic to so topic one was. The developer's agreement that is the document you -- before you illegally allowed to release apps get into the app store process. And then there's. If you've done that. Will Apple actually approve the app because in order to get trapped -- into the app store you've submitted to Apple. And then previously went into kind of a black box and then it would come -- the other side Apple as they approved and here it is vitally thought. Apparently very little warning or denied and maybe they would tell you why maybe not exactly what they have done is they released the -- store guidelines. And it wasn't a legal document it was a very humanly worded document you can see Steve Jobs touches all over it. Let's talk -- personally use the -- box right yeah. In Miami news is and published in it was yes I mean truly undisclosed people -- to -- for themselves you know what types of content is. Are allowed in the apps for by looking at headlines this thing got rejected is now an approved and so wants him. Now people actually have something to look at and say okay so these are things I'm not a -- to do if I want to speak in the app store whereas before. He would just have to guess and say okay so these are the people -- doing this -- so maybe I can do it too. Which I think -- was -- yeah a pretty negative precedent to set. You know I think for creativity Ed foster's conformity you know also kind of multiples people from innovating and pushing the envelope of they're afraid to take risks. If the deal once spent a lot of money if they're gonna if you think they're not gonna be able to get their -- approved so. Now that they actually know what they can't do they can actually use -- as much as possible I think it's really important thing. -- -- -- One would hope I mean it certainly hope that a blood test. David do you feel now better or worse about creating. Apps for the app store. Let me ask -- to Detroit for prior to -- -- have any run ins with the process where things didn't go the way you expected yeah I -- we we had. -- now -- before and it wasn't you know about process at all and it's that we basically submitted you know the the -- X application and Apple got back to us after couple days and -- is that. Knew they had an issue with some of the content that appeared there because you know the whole product to social and -- -- you know it's the crowd and other people are pushing content you. Sometimes there's there was stuff that you know is admittedly objectionable. On it's we -- the problem by actually making it changed not to be up to our website which let other users in the community flag content is objectionable and we just filter all exceptional content oddity you know -- -- We toy out play like this is what we did the -- the out and that it was approved thought that Apple's morality filter became part part quoted into your product essentially. Not their -- specifically and in more just the general what kind of the fact they have one right yeah. Interest thing. Until you change your app because of that now with these new agreements with that with the new guidelines do you feel you have a better handle on what will go through what would not. Yeah I think it's a little to clear button before it's kind of you got a sense of of where they stood based and other stories you heard about -- getting rejected. And there was still personality talk to you next talk to one person on the phone. At one point -- Apple know about what we need to do. It -- to get out superb I think now it's just that you know it is a much clear process so that you know developers that having gone through it before public can go through with a lot more competent. To Brian. That when of the -- things about the app store guidelines is that it strikes me that Apple is really trying to put. Its own sense of what is -- what is acceptable ray on on to developers and and two and a box in their creativity it says. Or or their points of view -- one of the the key point to the top of the document says. We few apps is different than books or something with the should be different but that -- different. No if you think different we view that's different than books are songs which we do not cure if you want to criticized a religion write a book. If you want today right sex write a book or a song. Most songs are about or create a medical app. What makes applications -- do you think so different from other forms of. Created -- -- mean that's a really great question because I mean what's a magazine these days are in a magazine can resubmit and the media can be even interactive it has some video game elements and I don't see why there's a point in separating these things anymore and and it's also good point to -- iTunes you know these they sell music they sell books and a separate section that's completely. I mean there's some regulation as and they have -- partnerships and agreements but there's no way. Kind of censorship as to what types of content is allowed to be in there. And so I mean sprint and is separated into an app I think he's just -- -- -- have sort of their own little platform that they liked curator in that they have. You know lucrative control over -- and just and we can complete control over their mobile platform is what they're trying to do. And I mean that's just a matter semantics I think at this point -- -- -- but the point is of saying that this is an average of. -- minority -- what's the difference I mean you're redux is an application for sharing content but the content is video. Right and you obviously have content video -- you're just saying that Apple would find objectionable but other people might find. Mean there could be some medical education. Document that is. Totally borderline one person would see this as. Pornographic and other personal it is educational you do you what happens though. Yeah it's it's a really fine line -- so. For us kind of jobs easier because Jerry -- -- -- active community people level like stuff -- objectionable for them and they over flag. We mean -- and they take something could all. If I understand you correctly all that has happened or a piece of content not make it onto the iPad version of redirect to the video sharing service -- for one person does that finds objectionable as automatically -- It's not one person of. We kind of there there's a certain amount of people in custody and we actually you know -- there's people. That work the company that our community matters where if they -- -- that it you know absolutely doesn't doesn't go then it happened -- But you're right that you know if you go to our site. And you go to the -- patter you know iPhone version there's definitely a difference in the content that's there. And but on the other hand you know a lot of companies you know do the same thing because they recognize that yes certain audiences the -- children and people that. There are -- and -- -- is that you wanna have different continents and I don't think it's something that's necessarily about although I agree that if the -- the bright line between something like a magazine now. Is extremely thin -- -- you've got four port for instance which is a really popular I application. And you know there's a lot of content in there that that content ambassador you know objectionable but that's not because of -- -- that's just because it's kind of -- interface on. Upload -- posting on the Internet might be objectionable onions so either way there's still a lot of issues actually with the app store. I think it's a good step that they're actually making an effort to publicize something they're publish something. But they need to do more and I mean if you look at some these guidelines are still some of them are still completely ridiculous are very you've made it look at what's your what's your favorite of of that -- my favorite line is. We have -- a fart apps we don't need anymore fart apps right keys. Let me read the whole part of that yeah yeah -- right here. That that's one of their their top tenets and that that says we don't need any -- fart apps if your app doesn't do something useful or provide some form of lasting and payment. It may not be accepted. There's so much wiggle room and that clause that for that that day that I'd like going -- let's say even mean I mean what what is lasting entertainment you know it's it's a select few people at Apple who decide what's. What's lasting entertainment. I think it's extremely hypocritical that they like this is of story -- few weeks ago the -- Phillips Shoemaker he's the director adapts to review team and sells his own fart apps and the apps those -- you -- urination output highways to some guy peeing in the toilet. Nice Angel Pena's in the very -- form -- entertainment and if you drink it litigator reader's opinion it is Atalanta consented to stuff. So and there are just like on things like still. There's there's one part of the guidelines it says we have too many of his -- and we're not -- approve any more and how much is too many. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Well my issue with that one and is that it seems to put a cap on comp unhealthy company exactly that -- -- pick the -- forget fart apps let's take for example. -- oh why you know any app that your kid's game for matching shapes into -- boxes. Okay -- there's a bunch of those on their right now suppose I create one that is does exactly the same thing from on paper. But as I feel is better is Apple do you worry that Apple would reject that -- because we have too many. And according to their guidelines they might and they don't see how how much is human and they need to get rid of stuff like that nineteen -- and I mean just looking at -- -- guidelines I mean a lot of it is just cattle logging it. A lot of stuff that weird you know from past headlines at this they're really address a lot of concerns about what the rules actually are. -- say I mean even looking at the cartoonists. Clause like that that one about satire or if gaming public figures is that the one. Yeah let me get read that one that's that's a very important one in here which is worth some discussion. Professional political satirist and humorous are exempt from the ban on offensive or mean spirited commentary and that. Dovetails with another one here which is one of their top clauses which is. About amateurs. Rollers that amateur via. -- can't read or write -- but it's in finder and up -- there's one here about. -- being amateur hour. Incidentally question is with his professional cartoon is want what is a professional cartoonists. In I mean anybody could be professional cartoonists -- web -- guy could be professional cartoonists if you Sosa T shirts advertising his cartoons and where do you draw the line is -- a newspaper cartoonists officially a professional cartoonists. Are these people out to became public figures because they've got some sort of higher prestige status what you're here it is this is another one of -- -- -- which is related to that and it relates I think to how people become successful developers -- does not just about content. It says we have lots of serious developers who don't want their quality apps to be surrounded by amateur hour. Yet so. David how are developers. Supposed to learn how to succeed in the app store because we all start out as amateurs -- today. Mall yet -- -- think the spirit of it. Is view reward developers -- a lot of time and effort into their I don't think Apple wants. Developers -- put you know -- d.s worth of work into. To make a ton of money -- -- -- they wanna reward people who put in a week's they have a couple people working on have lot of great are going to -- they want a reward Kennedy and you know because of the world. That you know have great applications they use work with great developers that they really high quality -- you can play. In a day after day they don't want -- there was an app on the store that I saw in. January -- public -- heater. It basically you know it showed a picture of a grill of ten and -- like you can you use this out to warm -- and was in the top of the -- -- out section in the store I mean because developers. It a lot of money I think if you're -- if -- -- -- free up in the in the top section story to a 100000 lets them today and is made up. It's probably doing maybe 10151000 -- that -- they're making a lot of money from this app which didn't have a lot of functionality and it was taking that's auto way. From a developer that that you put a lot of work. And effort into the -- -- -- it really high quality and you are you behind that decision because I actually find that somewhat dumb over controlling Apple's perspective and I'd like to hear. Somebody argue my point picture means -- against my point oh yeah and I think I think the spirit of the laws in the right right place and I think. You know ultimately what would solve the problem is the better -- discoveries in the store and is a lot of companies outside -- Apple are working trump for instance and I've heard of them. Is one such company. But you know theoretically you how to store that it and it better help people discover routes they would really like -- you wouldn't really have to worry so much about. A flooded -- coming in the store that are you know -- quality. But because that's the stores built -- -- that is where it rewards people who make their way to the top of the charts. I think you know Apple feels that they want to reward lots of people with kind of -- borrow one hit wonders that don't really do anything. And more of kind of that developers have put it on about the route make it really -- and that's -- Apple rhetoric in Apple's products are all about quality. I think they wanna have it a store that reflects that as well and I don't I just had little side note here of course CNET reviews at the iPhone -- iPhone with the outcome. Also recommend people check at the app called app -- not that refining -- America. Yeah so ID you know I'm I'm I'm not saying I disagree if you understand I think you know that that's kind of where their heads and I think kind of the spirit. Of the guidelines are are really in the right place -- -- you look at that the app store right now and sometimes you'll see apps that kind of are are pretty frivolous and nature -- think as far as the political. You know comment they don't wanna have. You know politician. Make an app that you specifically to rights but -- competitor and then use that. Platform to bump the -- in the top you know slot is the way to get more people to download there. In other words yeah that's something like it Apple is. Moving into the realm of censoring politics and I and that. -- -- -- you don't even. -- you just saying this because of this other one which says. If your app is rejected we have review board you can -- you'll if you run to the press and -- just that never helps they really say that as part of the up and -- -- -- this a lot of developers that have a rejection instead of working with Apple like we did build Reno runs the press and say hey Apple rejected me coverage you know and use that as -- you know bargaining chip. So I -- I'm not I'm not worried about that I'm saying that I think there is a real problem with -- with quality -- in the past and that. You know rejecting those -- isn't necessarily the best way to do it. But if there isn't a good way to discover the good -- which I think is kinda lacking right now on the ecosystem. Then that really becomes the only records. -- preventing that really really bad -- -- you know rising up and in one way it because they well. If you put dollar in this v.s out there must be something good about it right I mean why not just let the people -- -- decide what they want. But you know that's kind of why and it's gonna that is between quality and and because -- the crowd determine everything lot of times the crowds of the stuff that. You know ultimately doesn't have that much plastic -- It you know the onus is to allow Apple to say. You know we want our platform to reflect the way we build our products which is you know they're all about quality -- lasting values support because candidates the short term. -- I think that that entire effort is futile although there's no way they're gonna be will be able to control the quality of 250000. However many out there are right now. And I mean there's there's so much crap and there are ready and and the guy who's in charge the apps are -- makes complete garbage so I mean it at a I don't see what the point is anymore. I mean it there's just too vague wording Q I mean if you look at the even if the pornography wording on the dvds of Webster Dick dictionary definition to say this type of content is not allowed this is what the definition -- -- And yet -- allows stuff like Sports Illustrated and stuff like the Playboy had been there and and everybody else -- -- You can't have this application that shows bikinis because a year some amateur guy. You know and and and that's the question of like so so this quality defines you as people who are just bigger players who are big publishers is is that. Not this is not digital democracy it's completely controlled by a single point of control which I think -- Is not a very good environment for creativity -- and when I'm getting at here is I think. It's okay for Apple to create their own platform and have control over what they want is right. In their own store but I think he could shut me up and should have charitable which critics if you just allow people decide load -- applications. Like people can do you -- Android phones that can. Phones that are not approved an Android story can just be downloaded through direct link until their phones and people can -- have things like that. Let's talk about that first second and what I -- wanna get into them that's a good segue into the issue of how other platforms are dealing with applications and duration and quality control. Yeah you talk about side loading on and I really -- yeah it some people call it and and actually makes sense -- you know Android app store has. They had their official I think is called Android market. And you know it's got most of the same rules Apple -- you know you can't have porn you can have viruses or things that crash of course. But you know for things like Warner -- that people want there -- separate little app stores on the web and you just give people a direct link to download -- application and they can have whatever content they want on their phones. And you you know it's -- There are some issues right now about Android not being as open ended as it could be as much as they'd be claim they are but they're -- more open an Apple and -- that regard they're not a single point of control over what people can have on their phones. I mean if the only way to get alternative content on iPhone owner and I -- that. IPod touches to hack your device and Apple doesn't support that as it's not not very good I don't think for the customer what about the security issue -- -- -- -- -- but. Well Apple would of course I -- the easy answer to that there are complicated and and and argument we have -- the easy argument against allowing site loads or direct downloads is the viruses right. And Apple does a good job at protecting people from -- -- -- every Nestle argument of them I an automatic computer people have automatic computer now like the forty year old. If year old moms don't have to worry about protecting their compute their iPad from viruses. And that's it that's a huge it's a huge benefit but the tradeoff is you know you lose all this control and use do you give August control and Apple so. The only way to get that controlled Pakistan -- -- which your device in a way that's and supported. And I don't think that's that that's the best -- go. David your thoughts on on the control issues it. The sense to me like even though you're the two apps that we know about the were and so far one which is the community video service in the other one which is -- media. Relatively violent game. That you're comfortable with the Apple agreements and guidelines right and I think. You know the the solution it's just that -- entry does could make some sense but ultimately. It's important to remember that most developers are still developing on the Apple. I was up from less that's suggested you know a lot of -- -- -- -- the interest or. But you know I heard -- -- the other day that you know. People make eight times as much more money on the Apple stores that make an interest or given the same number of users and that's because Apple users in the store are willing to pay. Or games and in game purchases a lot more than -- -- entry now part of that's the payments that's right. ITunes has a really good payment systems that up wears on and critically you -- to use PayPal or Google checkout and it's not that it automatically frequently when you knew you create the -- So -- part that's because it's less friction while but I think the other part of is that. Because users in most is an Apple Store the security experience where there used equality in getting apps that don't in fact you know -- their phone viruses or crash it. They're more willing to pay. I think that's the that's the kind of the downside of a completely open environment economic developers would care environment opener and they care -- ups are protected. But they really only care how much money in Canada but they wanna put -- -- on the -- from what's gonna make them the most money -- right now that's Apple. I think Apple might perceive -- kind of cure rated summit closed environment. As part of that recipe to success because the more people. That download apps and had good experiences more than a continue to do so. For his Android -- your brand new user you downloads throughout the terrible to -- -- -- like Al not to do this again but it's not McDonnell perhaps. And guess what every other developer and app store loses as a result of that. That's I think. That that's can be argued committed Apple's -- that hey. -- in that in -- -- -- short run you are analyzing a -- developers but in the long -- if you're creating a store that ultimately more people purchase stuff from. Developers are gonna develop ever -- of how open or closed. -- could still have that and so -- its idling experience I mean day if we can have the best of both worlds here and and keep the friction free way of getting applications the best way is always gonna be the app store -- happen down the abundance right there. But if people want some sort of content that Apple would not agree with and say you know it's like some sort of temperature cartoon that. Makes fun of political figure than somebody might want and they can download it through -- Just. I don't see why we can't have both have different. Then -- -- outside the ring concept and theory sounds you know useful and in they may work for for compliment the the you should you still run into though is that. You -- lose accurate approached the store and if you know a lot of users about experiences with. That could cause them to stop selling out to track as you pointed diminished if they're branding them potentially and that that -- -- both arguments to be. And -- issue. Well that's a very interest that that's one of the most Cogent argument I've -- in favor of Apple's. -- so far -- really appreciate that so thank you one we're gonna have to wrap up here but. I will last one less -- this the question actually from produced in terms that. What are the biggest improvement from the developer's perspective in the new agreement and the worst. -- I think the you know the review board is is really interesting -- got a lot I mean it yeah we haven't had problems in the past but I can see that being pretty useful but if -- lot of new developers know that -- -- -- -- -- and they can get kind of more information when they rejected. Intensive. You know the worst part of the agreement -- And I don't know if there's really kind of -- anything there that that struck me -- -- at all and I view the entire agreement really is. An improvement over the last one because it it simply spelled out -- writing. You know what we kind of -- guessing about before would you like to be more concrete are you comfortable with that the way it is. -- I'm pretty comfortable who isn't. And that's partially just because of our area of focus you know we're we're not -- developing political ups are gonna develop games and you know the company I'm working with. Redux co founded. You were developing social video you know -- so you look at those two areas it's you know they don't really fall within -- -- the the question areas specified by -- agreement so. So I don't really having to worry about right now. So your stuff can be found at their -- RE DUS -- com and the the gunman game is in the the app store. Brian any -- -- you know an investment you started with this in that I think the best part about having these guidelines now -- open. Is that customers -- you started this is the people listening to this -- primacy customers. They have a clear idea now what they can't have when they're buying an iPhone owner and I pattern iPod which -- -- compete competitor like an Android device. And -- I mean there are not gonna be very many people who want to educate themselves but giving them the option to do so is always nice. Transparency is good. And not a good thing like I said was that developers can from now on -- Schiavo -- Based on what these rules are -- in. Maybe make some things that are less homogenous let's land in line -- -- -- the store. The worst part I think still is that I mean there's still a lot of vague guidelines that he seems somewhat arbitrary and -- Up to a few people -- in the app store and there's still just single point of control. For the Apple platform and unless you -- your device which potentially break your device. You can't have anything besides that unless you go the -- of course but. Yeah there are -- complicated. And so Brian yourself some wired dot com at any particular place people go to read more about it or wired dot com slash gadget lab is means fiction -- -- great. Well thank you very much for making a time to -- in branch and from wired. -- -- -- Macintosh from redux if you next week another great topic on what it is yet that'll be great. You can email me if you have ideas -- roundtable at cnet.com. The site is reporters roundtable dot cnet.com a -- show notes and links to everything we talked about. Follow me and Twitter are AFE four news on what's next and concealment -- thank you. I've run --