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Tech Culture: Ep. 97: Frontiers in search

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Tech Culture: Ep. 97: Frontiers in search

37:39 /

And you thought search was done. Startups and upstarts keep trying to chip away at Google. From Microsoft to MC Hammer, there are challengers coming from everywhere. Today we talk about them, with guests Paul Sloan and Harry McCracken of CNET News, and Jim Lanzone, president of CBS Interactive and former CEO of Ask.com

-- -- -- welcome to reporters' roundtable. I'm -- needle in San Francisco -- our -- -- a single tech talk to each time and to date you thought search was dead. And raise your hand if when you wanna do a search you do anything. Other than Google. -- -- few of you raise your hands probably not too many -- but start ups and upstarts big and small from Microsoft MC hammer yes really. Are doing competitors to Google trying to carve out little pieces of the search industry and that's what we're gonna talk about -- We've got a couple of really three really mixing gas -- like hearing from. To talk about the different approaches to search. And if -- is vulnerable. First up in the studio I have with me here Paul Sloan is the executive editor and in charge of startups. Now welcome Paul thanks for joining us expert. We have Harry McCracken is the editor of technology answer as both a columnist for time and for us Harry thanks for coming in -- that. New column for CNET news called challengers which is really awesome. Into thinner thanks -- command finally joining us from our New York studio Jim land -- who's the president of CBS interactive which is the parent company of CNET. And all our bosses Jim I cannot thank you enough for making -- time for its movers. Jim was also the previously the CEO of a little company may have heard of called ask. -- search engine. Or an answer engine whoever gets there -- I said okay what that. Syndicated. Say the K. Ask. -- -- thanks regular time Jim and others ask jeeves. They killed -- they took -- -- back. You was not killed He was frozen carbon. Sprint backed seats are right -- -- we have a little bit of time -- talk about search let's talk about the opportunity first by looking back now. When I was. Eight getting into covering Internet companies start to stuff like that Yahoo! was the big name in search and in this little thing came along called global. And they completely killed Yahoo! how did they do what was the opportunity. That Google -- That they are -- still writing. They killed both Yahoo! and Alta Vista which all the other when I always think of it. And they basically ripped off Alter vista's user interface which is practically the same as Google is today. The with Alta Vista you never know you would get -- order BM. There was good stuff and that there was also a total junk at the top button and essentially Google caught -- because it was the first search on John -- the results for relevant. Meaning you can be pretty sure that's -- would be a top. -- was okay too but Yahoo! wasn't really a search on John. It was an index repaired editors didn't and even if you have hundreds of editors. Now. There was no they had capture the entire web yet that model didn't scale -- face I. Make it basically built of that amount is demanding improved technology greatly. And plus they really moved a lot faster areas where Yahoo! just didn't and in addition to having better results they created a way to monetize it that made that it brought them much more business to now that's -- one of the well odd months of this -- information happening here well yeah. Let's hear it from somebody went and what -- as -- logs and analyze. When I mean efforts overtures the one who invented right at the revenue model progress and and then -- it wasn't yard didn't have have listing. Editorial listings -- to me. -- -- and then they switched to Google. -- someplace which is below its right yes and that's what happens with an advertisement for Google the bottom of the page and users weren't stupid and they start to go directly -- In the reason why it happens because Yahoo!'s was you know the number one -- in the -- And they were portal in the -- -- model for search the times the middle of money through through display. And so you know they'd put those -- over the page the start focusing on search and Google's win rate through the -- -- the offensive line opening of a whole. For a new brand comes through in Yahoo! -- only allowed doubt that they also promoted a patent. -- -- the opportunity and wasn't public they didn't have those ads they have the better results and Ask.com are asked he's rather came along win and now. 9697. That was focused on and on quick. Q&A purely through editorial largely methods and and technical matching. When I got there in 2001 it was already know Google's from we already fifteen times larger. And you know we found is that they had a lot of -- -- did a lot of users and they just needed to actually deliver real solid results of those users to grow. And so that's what we -- a little search engine called Teoma. Which is ten person shop and skill that -- and that -- had real search results so when it went from being so they really didn't deliver very many answers to delivering one. Ninety plus percent of the time. Okay so. Interesting correctional history -- a thanks a lot including. Do harm him and I do I mean I do remember the solves all coming back to me now go to -- com. An amendment meeting with go to and -- -- described -- the idea of auctioning off results. Which at the time people founded in offensive idea me because they thought that search should be entirely -- and then Google figured out how to split the difference yeah then it. Didn't didn't Google makes a smart acquisitions like buying applied semantics which you Yahoo! and Overture when using before hand and -- -- -- but those for word for AdSense that was for contextual matching of display ads is right when I mean innocent until until the market tests -- -- -- bringing -- -- matching in the auction system. -- -- Why do I think that was part of the core Edwards at that He kind of -- from your -- -- let's. -- -- look forward which is really what I want to do here are look at at them at the present time right now where. You would think that a company like Google comes along and really. Gets everything right in terms of make up the search algorithm right least right enough but at the business model right at least right enough. And yet companies still think they can take a piece of that -- Including you know -- artists at Microsoft which has being and they bought they've made axis this as well power sent. And even electric and yesterday or the day before at web two summit MC hammer was up -- talking about the search engine he's trying to launch called wired do. Why did these companies think. Putting aside Microsoft which is you know extremely credible but we've talked about other companies recently on the site -- no -- -- though I talked rose. Where's the opportunity for companies come and take a piece of the search market. Well. I relative to the guys who run duck -- go and what they'll last week. And their big seeing is that Google is becomes so overrun with spam -- and that there's so much junk and that if you search and certain categories in which has. Healthy economy and finance and a home mortgages and health care if he's kind of searches bring back so many. Bad results that they think there's opportunities to to steal some market share in the argument being of course they're not gonna be Google but every percentage of market shares worth. A ton of money Judith from from your perspective -- C over search and answer company -- whatever. Does that work out from a business perspective being able to -- a little lawful Vogel spider. I mean if you can get if you can get the market -- and of course so -- the question is can you satisfy user names and and you know become the main search engine mean and it's only -- becoming someone's number one engine. And to do that I mean that's the problem is it's very hard to be -- good for all searches and people don't use different search engines for different kinds of searches. So our city actually have to be good not just at the head as -- caller on but also tale. And that's the the huge advantage to as infrastructure. -- speed. And and that's has been a challenge for startups it was even the challenge for us and we were top ten -- -- And don't buy it you know I see eventually. And when we were doing full blown search -- even then it was difficult for us to it to be -- comprehensive. Now. -- -- you guys have look at some of the challenger search engines are now -- to accomplish -- which it has mentioned. But what of these guys do that Google doesn't know why would anybody consider going to something called bubble echo which by the way. The guy told me why they launched that that's their name as basically -- search their naming company -- -- it was something else on their own the buckle when a but anyway why would anybody. Could anybody ever consider replacing Google in their daily life of one of these -- I mean when He was like -- it's actually really cool service that challenges getting -- share and getting awareness and as Jim said just getting away from the and most people just by default now use Google from. I mean it's a curious systems they they have people they have a system called slash tags and they have in a sort of a Wikipedia model where they'll have sort of an expert in certain fields that will actually put put slash tags next to certain categories instead of China ranked credible sites. I was like Yahoo! -- it out late duration it and understand and scalable model there's definitely generation Leo. There ABC and as -- would you like I haven't remain. And -- about the interest and again the bar is very high to replace Google because. When they wanna search my fingers are trained to go to Google. Bomb but don't go as critical and until recently was basically one guy. And some volunteers who don't impressive search engine and they -- results from different places including black arrow. I'm so with them also the messages partially we have less spam must junk and they also -- lot of stress on and on privacy. Google you know Google these to his delight -- Is capturing as much information about me as possible right -- kind -- have to trust that that Google will be responsible with that tomorrow night you suddenly as I don't want to conduct that go -- nothing about me. I wanna talk about that because that's -- a vulnerability. He leased to the press the -- in the world of PR people pitching search engines and and products in that space. As a vulnerability of local -- He is and optical pushes -- heart we don't collect any private information on new and other companies push -- you know you won't have search spam or. Whatever what are -- vulnerabilities. Of global or is it just question of skimming off a couple of other people who like alternative for the sake of alternatives. It doesn't amaze me -- -- -- CD's all these you know. These times these sort series will now the New York Times news lot of stuff in the press about people about different companies gaming Google and and and expanding it is in a bad results are yet the market share just doesn't knowledge right I mean -- when you're working over on ask around. When you looked at Google as a as a competitor. What did you see as a place as a holding you could drive your site through. So. Know it's funny is that so many of these features have already been launched in the past -- That they're pushing for so ask a -- that we launched at the end of 2007. Said it wouldn't tracking your personal information we went hard at that in the press we got a ton of a big press around it. -- far more than these guys have gone around their privacy stance. End to come -- press and writers of this story users didn't really care team today. We were the first ones to launch most of the features they see on Bing. -- in terms of answers right in the page more robust dated within the page not -- search results. You talk to Danny Sullivan you know we've we -- very passionate about going beyond ten blue links as -- -- on trunk. It would you know kind of throw those wars all those all those features are great and they really do add -- -- to a search engine. -- what I kind of learn to -- that is that there's one. Place that you can actually attack. Google and it's probably the hardest one overcome in its speed. Because some people do a search. 90% of the time -- in -- -- In when their -- that moment of need. They're gonna go to the thing that that they trust that works for them rights too big of a hurdle in their lives to try something new that they saw a commercial -- -- read about. When they just need to get a right now -- -- -- -- thing and that's worked for them before. -- make the trade -- that even if if it may not be perfect. It's good enough it worked and so they trusted and if it fails. That's where the opportunities. And answer ask got a ton of our traffic was effort -- at Google we are only one of three major search engines in the world. And so it would default over to us the challenge then is that Google -- failed queer artists battling -- you'd be hard pressed to do it. As well. So that's why all this all in you know really the past ten years and I'd I was a big part of the -- I tried. Every different angle to go at it from product perspective. It really does come back to that court speed. For the user and speed not just in page load performance but in. You know in the perceived speed of how fast it will be to get -- answer for them. Before we get into some really current news about search I wanna talk about. One company we haven't talked so much here which is Microsoft and being. Now I've used Bing I -- to go all being for little while feature really quite good. What does that what's the future look like for being can Microsoft make this how much how much of -- can Microsoft chip away at with -- Anybody. While -- -- shook off a fair amount they are partially they do in a deal with Yahoo! opened. And taking over all that those search results and I think even without Yahoo! and has made some progress. And the big challenges that Microsoft has lost a ton of money on this project we're non Microsoft as one of the few companies -- has the luxury of being able to afford. To lose a lot of money. But you gotta think long run -- it's kind of pointless for Microsoft to be in this business. Unless they can make money at that and it almost -- -- look at what this ridership for Microsoft -- do you really think it's pointless for Microsoft to be in the business of directing people around the Internet. Well one way or another if it's good for them to make money him it may not be from from search ad -- and it needs to be something that. Makes Microsoft's. Bottom line healthy air in -- rather than costing them lot of money. -- -- -- -- The -- -- the market shares come from Yahoo!. As opposed to people adopting -- are their main engine I don't think it's impossible. -- but most of those features existed pre dating and weren't enough to move that needle and so. If they keep trying other -- is then it's possible. It but it's not a quick and an asylum and this -- -- me right into the mobile question which is the big new platform in the new frontier in search. And a gym -- -- saying a lot of the features that we're talking about whether it's on being or or some other challengers search engine these features are not new. The question is how to get the users over how do you get into the mind of users when they think search they think -- -- of Google I think being or ask or. Like oh. I just -- -- What but what product in the Internet has ever succeeded without. You know core group especially early adopters and so and -- darting their product. I don't know I can't name atop -- said that advertise its way to being -- exactly so it tested it the early adopters and her. For Robert Scoble did decide to use this engine -- a different engine. It's gonna have to you one that not He doesn't write about is being interest in the that He actually uses at home means alone in nobody's watching. And that's a huge hurdle yes I'm so that's -- in but in mobilization -- -- -- it's funny -- I remember being on search panels. It would Jeff Weiner an -- thing we were -- and -- at the time. And we would. You know. It speaks -- gramley of the future June 2005 about how in the future it's gonna be so amazing you're going to be able to be at a restaurant and search for Ty -- lifetime batting average. And it knows it we thought it was so amazing and -- here is six years later we were taken for granted poems. Not only would we take it for granted but it -- -- the way that we would do it now has become. Not keyboard -- that looks like thinks Apple -- just Paul -- to this great story with. -- worked on series. To tell us about. The importance that you think that Syria has four search especially in mobile. Well -- -- were interviewed. Gary Morgan scholar who was the first investor in series about windows start -- just -- few years -- before and was on the board until it sold -- Apple. And his point is that this is really. Because it's so based on semantic and natural language interpretation. Edit it could really lead to a huge leap in search because it's not. He argues like with the voice technology on some of Google's products where it's -- it's searching based on keywords. They you can actually have a natural conversation -- it and then ultimately you can do things. Like say find me the next flight to new York and San Francisco and it'll take you right -- find me -- hotel on Fifth Avenue tomorrow night in in the you know India on the upper east side. -- -- but that that's not that's -- church. That's something else. So there. -- and do it that's fine me this and do that there's so there's more search just becomes a piece of the experience right -- his argument is that is that it can be search but the but. In -- -- that would take advertising dollars away is that He could have these kind of click per action call to action. Services. But -- but it but search that could -- that He his view is that we will all be interacting with computers whether it's mobile or on a desktop through -- speaking to them. In the future and that would could disrupt the whole model of serving -- -- hundreds of Blu-ray. -- in merry makers talk at web summit she quoted sound -- CEO Alexander young I don't -- last name. Who said basically that sound or audio is the new QWERTY. That we are moving from typing as an input or is it as -- as. A query method to using her voice being during natural. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- I mean people and saying that for an awful long time without it actually happening that it does feel like something you're starting to happen. -- know Google talks about what percentage of searches. And on mobile devices are done with. With voice and that's. It's less than 50% but -- it's it's quite sizable. No do you think that with the series that Apple can't meet Google Voice Google search the app on I believe -- -- and on the iPhone I'm sure symmetric. You can search using voice and Apple now has this with -- is. Apple Syria through a credible threat to Google mobile search with voice. You know if you believe prescribed the notion -- Apple can make it cool enough and enough of a personality and not make it feel robotic enough at it etiquette. Really help in the Smartphone wars -- organize print and shirt and it could help but I would Jim but what engine are they gonna be searched. Mean that the unit edits and input ones with keyboard ones through voice right -- -- clearing the same engine. -- funny about it to me is like we've spent the last ten years Figaro is not talk to each other. -- -- it's down at way to download the rows of engineers and our company it's like -- I am in the person next to them innovative and home on his talk. I just come back the fact that. Right now idea do you think more searches will be by voice that just as it but -- have to just be more convenient and right now it's not because I don't trust the -- work. So it sounds to me like that will take more time I'm in -- hurried. It'll be easier for just type it and I think that's the biggest hurdle forwarded first. And in the meantime -- dispute -- I think his vision is quite a few years out and then the VC I've talked about this was. Was speculating that if Apple opens up the AP -- in the same way it did when it opened up. The iPhone for for development -- all the Apple. The whole all the developers out there would flock to it and start putting voice commands ran various apps that you might see awful all kinds of interest in innovation -- -- Now we're getting this is slightly. Off the rails here but one of the instinct things and I think about serious that it's. I don't and it really considered a search product until -- -- talking to you Paul about you know what's here He is here but it some. There's a search component there's of course. The speech to text which is currently nuance amateur -- and then there's the text to speech which is that's off the shelf that's -- to -- -- and then there's. The semantic analysis of what it again part -- part -- And then there's the personality apparently they've got a team of comedians somewhere inside Apple who are writing the smart -- answers that series it's that when you -- -- to open -- daily or one guy one black guy and they're right yes and we want against the right for a -- and -- well I'm are threatened enough by technology or don't want them back to doing that anyway but. Well. What does it all what does it mean when instead of you know just saying. You know search Corvette body panels -- like a security can you find me -- -- you know the thing to do that I mean. How is this all coming together and changing the way we get information out of -- out of our technology. It you know Jim give you -- your -- about it tying into the search engines that's true if you serious competitive through Bing or Google or or whichever but. But I guess that notion is -- you can speak to it instead of thinking of text words ultimately and again this is a few years -- and -- it might very much changed the kind of results or increase the accuracy of the results you -- -- What's funny is that to date it's been the opposite so cent natural language has actually been viewed -- again ask jeeves that was kind of the original. Premise of it. So would happen for so you'd also get these questions -- the whole Monty Python the only -- questions and things like -- of the previous offer natural language people start result. Resolving to that. I'm but lose interest or whose interest in his of people thought they had played jeopardy with search engine. Source they would go to Google and just type in two words -- they wanted to come to us and put in the form a question. Which then made it harder again to answer. And it also solving -- people stopped having which was people actually adjusted really -- figuring out how to queries search engine. Without even -- in terms -- end and so. You know I think it just is more natural and -- speaking so I think that's what's gonna bring natural language pack is a problem that needs to -- So backed away comment that's or how important his personality. Is a perceived you know -- mr. search and term is search and how important is that -- users. I mean the idea has always been -- like that Apple -- that knowledge navigator video. In the mid ninety's where there was like a little guy with a bow tie -- -- as a -- it was your assistant and and serious sort of moving that direction. I -- the -- part -- is huge because. The longest time people talk about semantic understanding and it didn't work that the two places where it's really worked well are actually related serious one of them. And the other is a site and we totally need to talk about in this discussion which as well for an awful in which serious sends some of its questions -- And both those cases these. They don't understand everything -- But if you ask my question in the -- recognition works well that there will generally understand your trying to ask when you ask him in the form of a question. You don't need to remember the exact wording her commands and -- that is huge. Well from -- it will all from alpha as -- is fastening products if you're looking for a piece of information but. Is that what people want to -- so much as time went when I search out and about other people when I'm searching I'm not looking for. When was the last -- solar maximum or you know what pan tone color is you know the blue and it in your shirt. And -- give me a site that tells me about such and such which is its traditional search how important or how He is the idea of information. Search I keep hearing about what -- from but I'm not sure I believe its business. Well they certainly haven't proved it's a business -- -- -- -- and on the they're making money and I I default to Google like most people there are times that when I wonders now what. When Microsoft stock has done an in between now and and 1994. You can go to -- from alpha and simply ask that question and in plain English and we'll give you a tiny graph that shows you -- am down. Google doesn't help much there are Google will send -- a -- finance site where you might be able to figure that out. The things that no no no company in history has spent more money and time and better engineering resources on semantic analysis -- Google. And so the reason why Google works the way it does is because that's what users are doing that's what they want and if they force fed -- we're doing in the engine. Fewer people would get better answers so it's more adapted to the way searches now. And -- -- evolve that way but really does. You know again -- and offer is a way of -- database if you query at the wrong way. It won't give you the right -- so it doesn't its market infinitely match those queries to the information its database that's the hardest part of doubt. Who Onebox those kinds of approaches which is what that's an expanded version of and it really is the same thing as querying a database that's all music guide for music information Yelp for local information. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- The the thing that's -- slowed down as has been users. They're just won a ten blue links. Couldn't nature of how people search change because as -- -- using is more mobile. I mean when you're making is compares engine to -- and four -- -- that we weren't all carrying these computers are pockets. I mean. Nothing that changes what types of queries you do when your mobile in the -- more -- Things like that when it the other an incident collection. -- -- -- That will one of the other things -- on his. One of the other big signals and other big data sets that is new. Post when Google launcher and -- is social. Is the importance of the social signal in the results -- now most search engines including Google. You no longer get the same results you don't get the same results that I get when you search for something because it Google knows who I am with from -- -- And it -- results based on a bunch of social signals. How important is of that and how is that changing the nature of search and -- people make money from search. Anybody genuine. Perry and I think right now it sort of modestly important part of if you try to terrorize about a world in which something comes along that blows Google away. The most obvious thing that might blow Google away -- sums transcendent. Leap forward. Based on I'm using people to power the -- them and nobody has that yet now a couple of sites have tried to use people to power the ask model like core Yahoo! answers for example. Where the kind of blending a result set -- An -- mark which I think Google which Google bought and shut down. Yeah exactly so they're trying to bring kind of real time they're trying to make us into the it parallel processor or somebody asked the question is that -- we think is that it. I'd what I mean I'm in on and on that conception I invested in -- -- In believe in -- approach for subjective queries through Google's very good for objective queries. And subjective means -- an opinion matters and so I do think that's huge area where you can you can breakthrough. And and -- but it tends to be I think that that vertical brands. Will be the ones that you know it's hard to do in all areas and you need a critical mass of people -- -- -- And so that you know that's gonna -- which -- but I -- -- -- is huge and interestingly. Those interesting to populated into the Yahoo! results. This has happened since Yahoo! answers in and that that you'll always see them the results themselves to their content. I use Twitter that way by the way I'm. I feel like 200000 followers man I used these sort of oil -- -- search and was better but it's gonna work like an act. And enough people that serve a critical mass at least a -- -- the gadgets intact. A use -- both for opinions but also when Google fails me. When placing notable virtually always have the answer at least that's tackling this with just what are you mean you use it as as -- research assistant database yes because if if you have a whole bunch of people somebody out there knows the answer I used to use Twitter that way you. Not the certainly -- Twitter searchers -- -- isn't that that in part I UC's Twitter that way now he's -- plus that way. That works -- term yes it's let it be it just a different more engaged. More it's more two way audience aren't quite right -- -- examples for the masses here why not. About FaceBook when -- -- this I was gonna say is what schools -- my high school friends don't know the answer to that. With the wrong I scan X girlfriend is -- that -- which are asking my wife gets -- -- man's girlfriend about how to upgrade my computer net. RI. What else here I am interest it will throughout the because in addition to the -- -- Because it may tap into something which is much deeper than you know just sunspot data earthquake theatre whatever which is. The importance of -- data shows a big folks of the concert is that what summit. As one of things that Google doesn't necessarily search. And more and more is how -- for example trying to open up their databases their tax records they're building. Permits all that stuff. What is happening in the room and medical databases are doing with people try to open them up. What is happening in the world of the structured data and bring it out and the world and in whereas Google place. We'll -- that sort of in the invisible Internet because that data is on the web somewhere. But Google can't go in and get that -- you needed to go somewhere else to search out the front page -- and will fall -- -- offline and often offer probably technically speaking is currently a search engine and present it only knows about the openness. It knows about it to -- -- which has a lot of stuff but that's not comprehensive. And -- -- and that's a new field. -- There are -- I think -- guardian that they're all databases the way Google handles that today in other search engines do the same with different names is one box. And and you can imagine a future where where the Onebox examples blown out until whole page of a responses around -- and in Bing travel search is a good example that today. And it's in sings it's almost like an infinite number of topics for data you can imagine Bible search -- -- in baseball -- so. The medical records is there is always been -- -- built in Google went after them and I believe shut the project down they did here right -- and don't know why. Maybe it's too hard even for Google. -- -- -- But a problem or privacy communities was privacy backlash. Thumb. -- we were launching a search company today and Jim Goss gets the last on this one where would you focus what Greenfield or. Not that heavily plowed field let you go after. Americans there there is something. Possible involving people. With no obvious by -- when mom and Yahoo! answers type. And partners to access such useful. Then and there is some way -- -- the right question the right people are bark. During that shark tournament accessed -- If that was. Marching down the money. And unfortunately Google product quite quickly after launch never given the fact that they'll maiden name in Aiken and unfortunately had mentioned -- my. That it could get an acquisition. Of this -- and shut it down before it -- competitive fortunately for -- but unfortunately for those of -- that there was a slightly -- London went -- to score. You know what about or on -- -- You know I -- -- and I'm looking for search for specific things I know it's all small sampling now but it seems like that kind of -- kind of crowd -- Source information to really be powerful in certain key areas of search you know essentially I think you're right I think -- can't -- -- -- -- -- a problem with my MacBook yesterday. And it wasn't I searched all over again and it wasn't there so. I want to -- -- the period from core. -- a MacBook won't shut down. Because of I think because of this what do you think nothing and I thought when I'm being an idiot I'm thinking and thinking like a journalist who have a specific questions I went to. A forum a Macintosh tech forum asked the question there fifteen minutes later at four answers one of -- worked. So why did that not surface what. Is is there an opportunity there. Because they're all these pockets of passion and expertise that are being -- global and should didn't tell me how to answer a question. The -- of the answers because there they put the big accumulated in areas of passion. Which is not gonna be a general site usually. -- which in and also inching their core I think it actually has been more robust in the Silicon Valley type answers about things I think it's the coolest when Reed Hastings goes on answers. Yet -- Israel in the right kind weekend reopening of people Orleans. If people aren't asking auto questions on there for example -- those -- on -- -- So -- has become by default kind of -- -- Alex are entrepreneurial site forum. I mean there -- I think that's it. There are lots of niche foreign sites -- -- -- effort but it's a niche for very specific areas -- you can answer questions whether it's about cars or whether it's about guitars. Whether it's about your computer I guess they're not lucrative enough for it's not doesn't make sense for Google to go after some -- an opportunity here. Just to be -- directory of those if you have a question about this go there and somehow -- content. Well I think that's what exists on Google you look you can Begin at the gym we'll -- a common thing. And I know I think you had answered at the meeting and showed -- MC -- -- the -- aren't so if we were to be. If you were in charge Google. How to make -- how -- -- stay ahead of all these emerging threats that semantics social mobile would you do. Jim you're the expert. But you know I set a member so we were one of their because -- partners and remembered being -- a dinner with Susan. That's his own just -- who who you know -- founded in her garage in there -- very scared about Microsoft coming after them. And in -- -- what do you do about it and she just said innovation. And pay. They knew mrs. 2003 or four that there -- -- to innovate their tails off stay ahead of everybody. And and they have you know. Tens of thousand employees in in -- have every and -- to focus on these things. In I think He really the biggest thing holding them back as their own interface. Infected people it -- don't want that from them. In don't currently want it from searched into it's hard for them is the of the shut down labs. Which is so interest -- and -- -- for them you -- being a public company that now they have they have every incentive to keep things the way they are which may one of opening up the opportunity to others. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- it -- -- mentioned something really important a few minutes ago which has the industrialised talks about how terrible ten blue links are another useless. It seems to me that most natural normal human beings are still quite comfortable with ten blue links in -- And people gonna give you better aren't -- They would ask jeeves when you would actually deliver an actual answer back in you would you would it. You -- survey users since input and answer a real answer next to the ten blue -- and say which ones and answer. They would say that's -- -- the link right it felt like if I can answer was that they thought -- was -- And -- and some -- Thanks Sunday real people snapped a four adds that some things we don't know about -- -- say this is better it but I don't work. Anywhere near close to that other thing that Jim what year was that. It's actually him it is five or six years ago and I agree with you I think that's the for and that's always the problem is people assuming they know because they've tried something before I -- that -- I stop them from doing it I just think mobile changes it. Eventually I -- I just think to have its gonna be different you want things to be much went -- it. Faster sharper display actually the being iPad app is actually -- From an interface point a user's point of view it's perfect for the medium so that might be an opportunity interest thing. On that I think we're pretty much out of time any final words favorite search upstarts that you think everybody should look at -- you just mentioned that Bing app for iPad I'm gonna check out. Harry Paul what do you think people should be using with the ever get bored of -- and decide to -- -- planet one -- -- -- what which I like because it's not competing with Google that's kept -- which is doing one thing which is. Search. For -- -- flights does mean a new hotel rooms and but it does. Airplane -- far better than anybody else chipmunk is beautiful you're actually right about that that's that's of great visualization and they really get their data set. -- I've been playing with that Stucco like to say and I liked it all right I've been -- my kids like it has now use it because it's -- it. It just has a nice interface it doesn't seem to be as -- -- of all the X rated material as -- -- on Google and done and it also does a good job but. Am asking you -- Dimitri you like you're sitting -- about what you actually searching force eastern for Apple Delaski specifically eternal dance. It sort of useful for them. I'm sticking with AltaVista and -- Are right on that note we're gonna have to close out Harry McCracken from technology advisor and our challengers -- thank you very much. Paul Sloan from CNET news human -- from CBS interactive. Thanks to make the time Jim thanks steam for producing. We will see that's all next week for another episode of reporters roundtable thanks every -- watching. And.

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