Ep. 1452 : Where we we peel the labels with Killscreen

[MUSIC] [MUSIC] Hey everyone it's Tuesday March 25th, 2014, thanks for tuning into the 404 show on CNET. Hey everyone it's Tuesday March 25th, 2014, thanks for tuning into the 404 show on CNET. I'm Jeff Bakalar. I'm Jeff Bakalar. We've got Ariel Nunez in the back rockin the board. We've got Ariel Nunez in the back rockin the board. Thanks for bein here, Ariel. Thanks for bein here, Ariel. Of course. Of course. Very special guest today. Very special guest today. I just met this man, but I like him a great deal already. I just met this man, but I like him a great deal already. I just wandered in. I just wandered in. You just wandered in off the streets? You just wandered in off the streets? The door was, door was open. The door was, door was open. You're a street dweller, it's fine. You're a street dweller, it's fine. That's the kind of audience we like on this program. That's the kind of audience we like on this program. [LAUGH] Jamin Warren founder of Kill Screen. [LAUGH] Jamin Warren founder of Kill Screen. Thanks for being here man. Thanks for being here man. Of course, yeah not a problem at all. Of course, yeah not a problem at all. I, I, I really like your website. I, I, I really like your website. I love your show PBS Game/Show on YouTube, fantastic. I love your show PBS Game/Show on YouTube, fantastic. I also love it. I also love it. I, I'm biased, admittedly. I, I'm biased, admittedly. That, that's fine. That, that's fine. You should be biased towards your own content. You should be biased towards your own content. Give give everyone listening and watching a quick sort of rundown. Give give everyone listening and watching a quick sort of rundown. What is Kill Screen, what's the Game/Show and all that stuff? What is Kill Screen, what's the Game/Show and all that stuff? Yeah, my background, I was a reporter at the Wall Street Journal. Yeah, my background, I was a reporter at the Wall Street Journal. I covered arts and entertainment for them. I covered arts and entertainment for them. I was originally, I was a music critic. I was originally, I was a music critic. Okay. Okay. I worked for Pitchfork. I worked for Pitchfork. Oh, right on. Oh, right on. And, at the time the Journal was looking for someone to cover music esoteric music, and I kind of like lucked up, fell into this job, and while I was there I got really interested in games. And, at the time the Journal was looking for someone to cover music esoteric music, and I kind of like lucked up, fell into this job, and while I was there I got really interested in games. I've played games my whole life. I've played games my whole life. Sure. Sure. I felt like the problem was that you know for me as a game player the conversations I started to have with game designers was, I didn't feel that they were really being reflected. I felt like the problem was that you know for me as a game player the conversations I started to have with game designers was, I didn't feel that they were really being reflected. The type of content that was being created. The type of content that was being created. This was four years ago that I think a lot of things actually changed in terms of elevating around games. This was four years ago that I think a lot of things actually changed in terms of elevating around games. But the big mission for Kill Screen, you know, we want to show the world why games matter. But the big mission for Kill Screen, you know, we want to show the world why games matter. Initially we started as a print publication. Initially we started as a print publication. Which you can see, we still do it twice a year. Which you can see, we still do it twice a year. Publish on our, on our website and then we do a daily website just sprucing content and stories around games. Publish on our, on our website and then we do a daily website just sprucing content and stories around games. And then one of our hallmarks has been, has been partnerships so. And then one of our hallmarks has been, has been partnerships so. You know we've worked with the museum of modern art in New York City to do the first ever arcade, and then help them take games into the permanent collection. You know we've worked with the museum of modern art in New York City to do the first ever arcade, and then help them take games into the permanent collection. We did some programming for The New York film festival am we're curating a gaming track at [INAUDIBLE] in Asheville, North Carolina. We did some programming for The New York film festival am we're curating a gaming track at [INAUDIBLE] in Asheville, North Carolina. Which is an amazing electronic music festival. Which is an amazing electronic music festival. If any folks are in Asheville, they should check it out. If any folks are in Asheville, they should check it out. And then recently I started hosting a show for PBS called Game Show, which extends some of the things we've tried to do with Kill Screen. And then recently I started hosting a show for PBS called Game Show, which extends some of the things we've tried to do with Kill Screen. Out into, you know out into the internets on the YouTubes. Out into, you know out into the internets on the YouTubes. Right on. Right on. Just asking like a big questions and trying to see what we can explore there. Just asking like a big questions and trying to see what we can explore there. It seems like the mantra, the theme throughout whether it's the show or, or the site itself is, is that games are a bigger deal then people sort of write them off as. It seems like the mantra, the theme throughout whether it's the show or, or the site itself is, is that games are a bigger deal then people sort of write them off as. Yeah, I mean I think there are lots of reason why. Yeah, I mean I think there are lots of reason why. There are lots of reasons which you know, I don't know if necessarily have time to go into all of them. There are lots of reasons which you know, I don't know if necessarily have time to go into all of them. I think there are wide variety why games kind of hold the place that they do in pop culture, and some of it is cultural, some of it's just for us as Americans in particular. I think there are wide variety why games kind of hold the place that they do in pop culture, and some of it is cultural, some of it's just for us as Americans in particular. We have a lot, a lot of uncertainty about the role that play should play in everyday life like a lot of people describe themselves to be guilty gamers or addiction. We have a lot, a lot of uncertainty about the role that play should play in everyday life like a lot of people describe themselves to be guilty gamers or addiction. WE use a lot of negative language to describe games and I think the place that we tried to play, is how can we identify other places where we think games should be and try to serve as a conduit to get games into those particular places, so. WE use a lot of negative language to describe games and I think the place that we tried to play, is how can we identify other places where we think games should be and try to serve as a conduit to get games into those particular places, so. There, I mean there's, you know, I think at heart, you know, if you asked, I'm sure if you asked a big room of 100 people how many of you identify as a gamer. There, I mean there's, you know, I think at heart, you know, if you asked, I'm sure if you asked a big room of 100 people how many of you identify as a gamer. Maybe, you know, a certain percentage, a small percentage might identify themselves. Maybe, you know, a certain percentage, a small percentage might identify themselves. If you asked them how many have a game on their iPhone, or whatever, everyone will say, every, almost universal. If you asked them how many have a game on their iPhone, or whatever, everyone will say, every, almost universal. So, you know, a lot of it is translating, I think everybody's a gamer. So, you know, a lot of it is translating, I think everybody's a gamer. I think not everybody self-identifies as a gamer, and so, I think giving people reasons why they should self-identify as a game-player, you know it's a big reason why, why [CROSSTALK]. I think not everybody self-identifies as a gamer, and so, I think giving people reasons why they should self-identify as a game-player, you know it's a big reason why, why [CROSSTALK]. For sure. For sure. And we, and we talked briefly before we, we started recording here, about the stigma that comes along with being self-identified as a gamer. And we, and we talked briefly before we, we started recording here, about the stigma that comes along with being self-identified as a gamer. And we'll get into get a little more into that in a few minutes, but I want to quickly talk about the conference. And we'll get into get a little more into that in a few minutes, but I want to quickly talk about the conference. Yeah. Yeah. That Kill Screen is putting together. That Kill Screen is putting together. Tell us a little bit about that. Tell us a little bit about that. Yeah. Yeah. Last year we, we did it for the first time it's called 256 it's in Brooklyn, New York on May 16th, and it's a games, arts, and culture conference. Last year we, we did it for the first time it's called 256 it's in Brooklyn, New York on May 16th, and it's a games, arts, and culture conference. And you know, I've been to lots of game conferences, and you know they typically run two different types. And you know, I've been to lots of game conferences, and you know they typically run two different types. There's kinda like big public fan fests, you know, there's E3 and pacts and [INAUDIBLE], GamesCom and industry-centric stuff. There's kinda like big public fan fests, you know, there's E3 and pacts and [INAUDIBLE], GamesCom and industry-centric stuff. Like the Dice conference in Las Vegas, there's Game Developers' Conference. Like the Dice conference in Las Vegas, there's Game Developers' Conference. And, I wanted to do something particularly here in New York City that would be in between those two worlds, with a particular eye towards getting people who wouldn't be associate with games. And, I wanted to do something particularly here in New York City that would be in between those two worlds, with a particular eye towards getting people who wouldn't be associate with games. Getting them in a conversation with game designers. Getting them in a conversation with game designers. So last year we had folks like the founder of 4Chan, Chris Pool was on stage was on stage with behavioral psychologist Jeff Lynn, from Riot Games that works on League of Legends managing online communities. So last year we had folks like the founder of 4Chan, Chris Pool was on stage was on stage with behavioral psychologist Jeff Lynn, from Riot Games that works on League of Legends managing online communities. Founders of Kickstarter and 4Square talking about game mechanics. Founders of Kickstarter and 4Square talking about game mechanics. This year we're super excited, we got a great lineup, Alexis O'Hannon, one of the co-founders of reddit will be one of our speakers Tarr and Zack Adams the guys who created Dwarf Fortress. This year we're super excited, we got a great lineup, Alexis O'Hannon, one of the co-founders of reddit will be one of our speakers Tarr and Zack Adams the guys who created Dwarf Fortress. Cool Cool That's a very rare public appearance for those guys Skip Leasey, who has just won an Oscar for sound editing the film Gravity. That's a very rare public appearance for those guys Skip Leasey, who has just won an Oscar for sound editing the film Gravity. He'll be on stage with Pat Balthrup who did all the sound design for Bioshock infinite. He'll be on stage with Pat Balthrup who did all the sound design for Bioshock infinite. We did a session on [INAUDIBLE] balls I mean we are really interested in, how can we get like one person from inside the world of games, and one person from outside the world of games, can talk about [INAUDIBLE] common issues am so psyched about it, and yes it's on sale now. We did a session on [INAUDIBLE] balls I mean we are really interested in, how can we get like one person from inside the world of games, and one person from outside the world of games, can talk about [INAUDIBLE] common issues am so psyched about it, and yes it's on sale now. Yes so where can people go and. Yes so where can people go and. They can go to 256.com Two Five Six.com. They can go to 256.com Two Five Six.com. Okay. Okay. And you can check it out on our website codescreendaily as well. And you can check it out on our website codescreendaily as well. Excellent. Excellent. Yeah. Yeah. This is very cool. This is very cool. I am on stage all day, so I do your job. I am on stage all day, so I do your job. Can you handle it? Can you handle it? I get, yeah. I get, yeah. I I You get fatigued? You get fatigued? My hope this year is not as much crying as last year. My hope this year is not as much crying as last year. There was a lot of crying last year? There was a lot of crying last year? Yeah a lot, a lot I got really emotional most of the time. Yeah a lot, a lot I got really emotional most of the time. It seems like it's that kind of conference. It seems like it's that kind of conference. Yeah, everyone. Yeah, everyone. You know, I cry. You know, I cry. Tears are shed. Tears are shed. Yeah just cry. Yeah just cry. That's good. That's good. You want that kind of emotion being. You want that kind of emotion being. Cathartic. Cathartic. Yeah, it's, it's You should absolutely. Yeah, it's, it's You should absolutely. Life changing. Life changing. It's a little bit of like emotional detox. It's a little bit of like emotional detox. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. That some people need to go through every now and then. That some people need to go through every now and then. A cleanse. A cleanse. In their life. In their life. Yeah exactly. Yeah exactly. Alright let's get to some topics. Alright let's get to some topics. A lot of our listeners are gamers and they take what you and I are so passionate about very seriously. A lot of our listeners are gamers and they take what you and I are so passionate about very seriously. I wanna talk first about the the award show that just happened recently at GEC the independent games festival. I wanna talk first about the the award show that just happened recently at GEC the independent games festival. Yeah. Yeah. The awards went out, and I think a lot of this discussion revolves more around labels. The awards went out, and I think a lot of this discussion revolves more around labels. And we said we were gonna talk about the stigmas of being a gamer. And we said we were gonna talk about the stigmas of being a gamer. But what I thought was really interesting was an article you guys put up about the creator of Papers, Please, which is a very interesting game that everyone should go check out. But what I thought was really interesting was an article you guys put up about the creator of Papers, Please, which is a very interesting game that everyone should go check out. It's not cut from the same cloth as a lot of the mainstream games people have become accustomed to. It's not cut from the same cloth as a lot of the mainstream games people have become accustomed to. But nevertheless, the creator of this game, Lucas Pope, sort of put labels into perspective and said, you know, triple A games, indie games, there's really no reason for any of this nomenclature you know, it's kind of like needs to be tossed, tossed out I have my own reservations about that statement. But nevertheless, the creator of this game, Lucas Pope, sort of put labels into perspective and said, you know, triple A games, indie games, there's really no reason for any of this nomenclature you know, it's kind of like needs to be tossed, tossed out I have my own reservations about that statement. Right. Right. But, I'm curious what you think about it personally. But, I'm curious what you think about it personally. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's funny with any games, I think a lot of the language there has been adopted from other mediums. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's funny with any games, I think a lot of the language there has been adopted from other mediums. So, independent music, independent films. So, independent music, independent films. I think the thing that needs some context is that, games by virtue, being a digital medium, are growing up in a different environment. I think the thing that needs some context is that, games by virtue, being a digital medium, are growing up in a different environment. And so, what the term independent means for games, I think immediately, becomes, this like, really, sort of like, but what constitutes indie, right? And so, what the term independent means for games, I think immediately, becomes, this like, really, sort of like, but what constitutes indie, right? Right. Right. Of course. Of course. Like, what makes and indie game? Like, what makes and indie game? And we have a guy who's winning, you know, three awards at the Independent Games festival saying, well I'm not really even sure what this term even means. And we have a guy who's winning, you know, three awards at the Independent Games festival saying, well I'm not really even sure what this term even means. Right. Right. I'm wondering if the classifications that we have between indie and mainstream slash triple A. I'm wondering if the classifications that we have between indie and mainstream slash triple A. Are those the most effective ones that we could be, you know I'm, I'm not saying that there are other things that we should be using instead, but clearly like, those seem to be maybe too coarse. Are those the most effective ones that we could be, you know I'm, I'm not saying that there are other things that we should be using instead, but clearly like, those seem to be maybe too coarse. Sure. Sure. it, I think if you ask someone like, what is an indie game, I think, I dunno what do you think? it, I think if you ask someone like, what is an indie game, I think, I dunno what do you think? What, what's an indie game for you? What, what's an indie game for you? Well, exactly, let's think I think that for me it's about the budget, and it's about what went into it really. Well, exactly, let's think I think that for me it's about the budget, and it's about what went into it really. And, and when you, when you look at manpower and you look at resources and you look at like what was the, you know, what was the overhead. And, and when you, when you look at manpower and you look at resources and you look at like what was the, you know, what was the overhead. And for me, that's what really constitutes it. And for me, that's what really constitutes it. We sort of just clump all these things into one label, and you know, seal it up, and say okay, here's an indie game. We sort of just clump all these things into one label, and you know, seal it up, and say okay, here's an indie game. But I think the bigger issue with, with like trying to put triple A and indie into perspective is, you know, it's really about, at the end of the day, it's about making money. But I think the bigger issue with, with like trying to put triple A and indie into perspective is, you know, it's really about, at the end of the day, it's about making money. Okay? Okay? Yeah. Yeah. And you can't, you know, just the same way the indie you know renaissance hit the film industry, and you know, I guess in the 2000's where you had all these films getting made for you know, well under $5 million, but then going to the box office and making you know, hundreds of millions of dollars. And you can't, you know, just the same way the indie you know renaissance hit the film industry, and you know, I guess in the 2000's where you had all these films getting made for you know, well under $5 million, but then going to the box office and making you know, hundreds of millions of dollars. You can charge the same amount of money for whatever movie you see. You can charge the same amount of money for whatever movie you see. Right. Right. You can't charge the same amount of money for any game you play. You can't charge the same amount of money for any game you play. Right, right. Right, right. So there's that weird sort of, you know incongruency there. So there's that weird sort of, you know incongruency there. Right. Right. So I mean, the question, it's a matter of sides, so like where's the cut off then. So I mean, the question, it's a matter of sides, so like where's the cut off then. I mean, if Titan Fall is like, [UNKNOWN] had like 60, 60 people something like that, work on it and probably they work with international art teams for the outsource, that happens a lot. I mean, if Titan Fall is like, [UNKNOWN] had like 60, 60 people something like that, work on it and probably they work with international art teams for the outsource, that happens a lot. But the core team, my understanding is about five dozen people. But the core team, my understanding is about five dozen people. And they make it, they made a game that's gonna be one of the most polished things that comes out this year. And they make it, they made a game that's gonna be one of the most polished things that comes out this year. Sure. Sure. So, that's the upper end, like, is it 20, is it 15. So, that's the upper end, like, is it 20, is it 15. Absolutely, and it's tough to really say, you know, what you know, what constitutes. Absolutely, and it's tough to really say, you know, what you know, what constitutes. Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Was that indy? Was that indy? Because well, no, they didn't meet the 35 employee threshold. Because well, no, they didn't meet the 35 employee threshold. So, to me, you know, it really, like I enjoy all kinds of games, it doesn't matter. So, to me, you know, it really, like I enjoy all kinds of games, it doesn't matter. I don't care what it looks like, I don't care, you know, how much how long it took to make, how much it took to make, for me, I just want that experience and I want to enjoy it. I don't care what it looks like, I don't care, you know, how much how long it took to make, how much it took to make, for me, I just want that experience and I want to enjoy it. But I think when you have a lo, a lot of these outside forces, sort of pressuring these things where if you're, you know an independent game developer, I mean Mr. Pope can't get outside of the fact that he's an independent game developer. But I think when you have a lo, a lot of these outside forces, sort of pressuring these things where if you're, you know an independent game developer, I mean Mr. Pope can't get outside of the fact that he's an independent game developer. Right. Right. He's not, you know, he's wasn't signed onto like a major distribution deal. He's not, you know, he's wasn't signed onto like a major distribution deal. Right. Right. Sort like he can't. Sort like he can't. But these things they really, its the thing that, its like that's what gets so murky about it. But these things they really, its the thing that, its like that's what gets so murky about it. Right. Right. So you think about kinda first round of indies games like Braid and Meat Boy. So you think about kinda first round of indies games like Braid and Meat Boy. Yeah. Yeah. I mean they're all distributed through you know the Xbox 360. I mean they're all distributed through you know the Xbox 360. That was their principal distra, and then they, you know, got really released on you know other platforms as well but that was how they made flash, and so I think even like allegiance to steam for example you know that's a big company. That was their principal distra, and then they, you know, got really released on you know other platforms as well but that was how they made flash, and so I think even like allegiance to steam for example you know that's a big company. A lot of game developers you know if you are indie you have do things via steam, and that's why like you have to look at other mediums like DIY, and music if you like disc core records, or something like that, like literally making your own fire is cutting them out. A lot of game developers you know if you are indie you have do things via steam, and that's why like you have to look at other mediums like DIY, and music if you like disc core records, or something like that, like literally making your own fire is cutting them out. Sure. Sure. Posting or mailing stuff by hand is like, so I think the question, I, I think what's, what's hard for people to disambiguate the the creative aspect of Indie. Posting or mailing stuff by hand is like, so I think the question, I, I think what's, what's hard for people to disambiguate the the creative aspect of Indie. Which is like a strong, authored, [INAUDIBLE] personal work, right? Which is like a strong, authored, [INAUDIBLE] personal work, right? Reconciling that with, what you're saying, the commercial realities of like, well you gotta make money. Reconciling that with, what you're saying, the commercial realities of like, well you gotta make money. Right. Right. Right. Right. And I think that's really hard for people to hold in their head. And I think that's really hard for people to hold in their head. Sure. Sure. At the same time. At the same time. Those two things would become very conflicted. Those two things would become very conflicted. And I would say more so as a tougher sort of thing to figure out when it comes to gaming, because you have these very sort of, you known, parallel issues that other mediums don't have for whatever reason. And I would say more so as a tougher sort of thing to figure out when it comes to gaming, because you have these very sort of, you known, parallel issues that other mediums don't have for whatever reason. Whether it's a technological thing, it's a, it's a social thing, it's a cultural thing, they just don't have the same, you know, destructive barriers that and hurdles that the video games sort of face. Whether it's a technological thing, it's a, it's a social thing, it's a cultural thing, they just don't have the same, you know, destructive barriers that and hurdles that the video games sort of face. Right. Right. You know, the way I see it and I try and think of like a business perspective you know, you look at the the big publishers and they spend millions of dollars promoting a game, and they have this all worked through, this gigantic business plan where, you know so many other entities rely on that spending of that money You know, the way I see it and I try and think of like a business perspective you know, you look at the the big publishers and they spend millions of dollars promoting a game, and they have this all worked through, this gigantic business plan where, you know so many other entities rely on that spending of that money Yeah. Yeah. To function properly when you have a game that is quote unquote indie like a paperspleaser or a gun home. To function properly when you have a game that is quote unquote indie like a paperspleaser or a gun home. You know, that, it doesn't work into that formula or equation and you know, on our end of the field where we, we critique and we praise, and we say oh it's so great everyone. You know, that, it doesn't work into that formula or equation and you know, on our end of the field where we, we critique and we praise, and we say oh it's so great everyone. It just sort of falls outside of that big machine. It just sort of falls outside of that big machine. Right. Right. And become you know, video game. And become you know, video game. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, it's a tough sort of existence for these guys to navigate. So it's, it's a tough sort of existence for these guys to navigate. Yeah, I mean the other thing that's worth noting is well I mean yeah, cuz each medium is different right? Yeah, I mean the other thing that's worth noting is well I mean yeah, cuz each medium is different right? Sure. Sure. Whats weird about independent film from the 60s is like that was all done on the auspices of Warner Brothers and Paramount. Whats weird about independent film from the 60s is like that was all done on the auspices of Warner Brothers and Paramount. They're, they were looking for ways to minimize losses after kinda the death of the western and you know, a bunch of commercial plots. They're, they were looking for ways to minimize losses after kinda the death of the western and you know, a bunch of commercial plots. Like alright let's give a bunch of these guys, you know, George Lucas, and Fred Sporcopulo, let's just like, let's give them some money to see what they make. Like alright let's give a bunch of these guys, you know, George Lucas, and Fred Sporcopulo, let's just like, let's give them some money to see what they make. And the end up making some of the most revolutionary films of all time. And the end up making some of the most revolutionary films of all time. Sure. Sure. And that was all you know, financed by you know, big studios. And that was all you know, financed by you know, big studios. And so, you know in some ways I thought games might move in that direction but you know, another future, so maybe the term indie might be more around like labels you know. And so, you know in some ways I thought games might move in that direction but you know, another future, so maybe the term indie might be more around like labels you know. So you look at things like what Majesto is doing with Midnight City or Devolver Digital is doing, or even you know, Max Temkin who made Cards Against Humanity was, you know, I guess he sort of published Samurai Gun, which came out recently in the [INAUDIBLE] PS4. So you look at things like what Majesto is doing with Midnight City or Devolver Digital is doing, or even you know, Max Temkin who made Cards Against Humanity was, you know, I guess he sort of published Samurai Gun, which came out recently in the [INAUDIBLE] PS4. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I wonder if maybe that'll be a place where it's sort of the Indy title sort of move away from India that turn more towards like these, like micro-labels that are sort of serving the, collect all these individual. Like, I wonder if maybe that'll be a place where it's sort of the Indy title sort of move away from India that turn more towards like these, like micro-labels that are sort of serving the, collect all these individual. Right. Right. Games, if you don't wanna do like Super DIY thing, selling through your website. Games, if you don't wanna do like Super DIY thing, selling through your website. Right. Right. Maybe signing on with one of these. Maybe signing on with one of these. You know, indie publishers or something like that will give you some cache I don't know though. You know, indie publishers or something like that will give you some cache I don't know though. I mean, I just, my, my personal preference is that, I, I think that genres are a much more effective way to think about. I mean, I just, my, my personal preference is that, I, I think that genres are a much more effective way to think about. You know, I think that, you know, if you make a shooter, like Titan Fall's gonna have, like, a lot more in common with, you know, a game like, Rust, for example. You know, I think that, you know, if you make a shooter, like Titan Fall's gonna have, like, a lot more in common with, you know, a game like, Rust, for example. then, you know, then rust is going to have with, like Kerbal Space Program or something like that, so. then, you know, then rust is going to have with, like Kerbal Space Program or something like that, so. I mean, so, so, best case scenario, like in a perfect world, and I don't really have an answer for this, and I'm looking to you as, as, to sort of understand how you see it to be, what is the best way for this to play out? I mean, so, so, best case scenario, like in a perfect world, and I don't really have an answer for this, and I'm looking to you as, as, to sort of understand how you see it to be, what is the best way for this to play out? I mean I think that, you know, we should probably, I think probably the best way would be to support to identify creators and be fans of that rather than be fans of [UNKNOWN]. I mean I think that, you know, we should probably, I think probably the best way would be to support to identify creators and be fans of that rather than be fans of [UNKNOWN]. I do think there's a sense that like, oh if you sprinkle the, and it's not just limited to games. I do think there's a sense that like, oh if you sprinkle the, and it's not just limited to games. But there is a sense like oh, if you sprinkle some of that indie, if you say something's indie, that makes it a good prodicular. But there is a sense like oh, if you sprinkle some of that indie, if you say something's indie, that makes it a good prodicular. There's like a buzz or ground swell. There's like a buzz or ground swell. Exactly, and other mediums that think that they've because they're more mature they've worked those things out. Exactly, and other mediums that think that they've because they're more mature they've worked those things out. So like, universal republic, right, which releases a lot of like, quote unquote, independent music. So like, universal republic, right, which releases a lot of like, quote unquote, independent music. Right. Right. Amy Winehouses label, and but they release a lot of indie music. Amy Winehouses label, and but they release a lot of indie music. I think that it, music we have a much more I don't know, it made more cultivated sense that like, we sort of get maybe what the term independent means and that's still being worked out for games. I think that it, music we have a much more I don't know, it made more cultivated sense that like, we sort of get maybe what the term independent means and that's still being worked out for games. Sure. Sure. But I don't know. But I don't know. I probably feel like we should just abandon the term entirely, like, it's too fraught with difficulties but, I mean, I don't know. I probably feel like we should just abandon the term entirely, like, it's too fraught with difficulties but, I mean, I don't know. I guess if that's the, if that's what gets people interested in playing some of these smaller titles then so be it. I guess if that's the, if that's what gets people interested in playing some of these smaller titles then so be it. I think, I mean, it's on everybody, though and I think we can both mutually agree that they are a great [INAUDIBLE]. I think, I mean, it's on everybody, though and I think we can both mutually agree that they are a great [INAUDIBLE]. We agree, we agree on nothing. We agree, we agree on nothing. [LAUGH] [LAUGH] You know, like, it is an absolutely great thing, these games are fantastic and they, and, I mean, you know, there's really, in my opinion, no disadvantage to having them around. You know, like, it is an absolutely great thing, these games are fantastic and they, and, I mean, you know, there's really, in my opinion, no disadvantage to having them around. I feel like some people sort of have this idea, and it's almost psychotic to me, that they're bringing down the rest of the industry, and I don't even understand where that comes from. I feel like some people sort of have this idea, and it's almost psychotic to me, that they're bringing down the rest of the industry, and I don't even understand where that comes from. Yeah. Yeah. I know, I mean, I don't think it's, I don't think it's a function of I don't think it's a function of like stakes, or anything like that but, you know, I do think that labels are important. I know, I mean, I don't think it's, I don't think it's a function of I don't think it's a function of like stakes, or anything like that but, you know, I do think that labels are important. Yeah. Yeah. You know, these things, I mean these things, do matter, like, you know when steam has a Indy, they've all different types of like, action. You know, these things, I mean these things, do matter, like, you know when steam has a Indy, they've all different types of like, action. Sure. Sure. There's RPG honors and steam right? There's RPG honors and steam right? And one of them is Indie. And one of them is Indie. Right. Right. And that affects the way that people think about it. And that affects the way that people think about it. And, I'm not, I'm actually not sure if they're mutually exclusive. And, I'm not, I'm actually not sure if they're mutually exclusive. But I know that, like, you know, that does affect the way that people think. But I know that, like, you know, that does affect the way that people think. It's a psychological thing. It's a psychological thing. Yeah, it's a psychological thing. Yeah, it's a psychological thing. It's like, oh I, I like [CROSSTALK] It's like, oh I, I like [CROSSTALK] I would support that argument. I would support that argument. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, I, I see it in the comment section of a, you know, our PBS show. And, I, I see it in the comment section of a, you know, our PBS show. People talk of about sort of Indie, well,I don't really like Indy games [CROSSTALK] People talk of about sort of Indie, well,I don't really like Indy games [CROSSTALK] Right. Right. Because they have this perception that Indy games are all like [CROSSTALK] Because they have this perception that Indy games are all like [CROSSTALK] Broken [CROSSTALK] Broken [CROSSTALK] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're like computer-based simple. They're like computer-based simple. There's no rules, there's one button. There's no rules, there's one button. Yeah, or like super, like e, like super emotional black and white. Yeah, or like super, like e, like super emotional black and white. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And I think what, what sucks, is I think that there are games that are independent games. And I think what, what sucks, is I think that there are games that are independent games. Yeah. Yeah. That people don't play, because they are scared. That people don't play, because they are scared. Sure. Sure. not, maybe not scared, is the wrong reason. not, maybe not scared, is the wrong reason. But they think that you know oh, that's gonna be too snotty. But they think that you know oh, that's gonna be too snotty. Right. Right. For me. For me. They think like oh, I'm not really an indir games person. They think like oh, I'm not really an indir games person. Sure. Sure. And that's kind of a bummer. And that's kind of a bummer. Just cuz I think that, you know, games can they really have this universal appeal. Just cuz I think that, you know, games can they really have this universal appeal. Alright so, like I said we, we are on the same page with that you know, I mean for me some of my favorite games of last year were you know, small haus games. Alright so, like I said we, we are on the same page with that you know, I mean for me some of my favorite games of last year were you know, small haus games. We call them small haus. We call them small haus. There you go, H-A-U-S. There you go, H-A-U-S. I like it. I like it. Right. Right. The The Which is some sort of beer garden. Which is some sort of beer garden. Exactly. Exactly. You know feel to it. You know feel to it. Germans, German's small haus game. Germans, German's small haus game. Yeah I like that, alright. Yeah I like that, alright. That's a property of the show here, let's not forget that no, but, you know, and, and then we, we talked you know, about Gone Home for a second. That's a property of the show here, let's not forget that no, but, you know, and, and then we, we talked you know, about Gone Home for a second. Steve Gaynor's game and, you know, he has been very vocal recently, you were telling me about the stigma of just Being a gamer. Steve Gaynor's game and, you know, he has been very vocal recently, you were telling me about the stigma of just Being a gamer. Yeah. Yeah. And I struggle with this all the time, and I don't really understand it. And I struggle with this all the time, and I don't really understand it. Is it like a cultural sort of thing where we're just not ready? Is it like a cultural sort of thing where we're just not ready? Maybe it's an American thing? Maybe it's an American thing? Yeah. Yeah. Because I feel like in other places, you know, gamers are sort of you know, made to look as these incompetent people who are wasting their lives away on their couch. Because I feel like in other places, you know, gamers are sort of you know, made to look as these incompetent people who are wasting their lives away on their couch. Yeah. Yeah. What, what do you think about all that? What, what do you think about all that? Yeah, I, I think there are long roots for why games hold the position that they do. Yeah, I, I think there are long roots for why games hold the position that they do. I mean. I mean. It's kinda the same thing as marijuana. It's kinda the same thing as marijuana. Yeah, no, I mean,in, in, in, you know, in the 80s that the way. Yeah, no, I mean,in, in, in, you know, in the 80s that the way. Think about when you went to an arcade. Think about when you went to an arcade. Yeah. Yeah. Every single arcade game had the say no to drugs. Every single arcade game had the say no to drugs. Right. Right. Right, that was the perception. Right, that was the perception. It had the say no to drugs DARE sort of thing. It had the say no to drugs DARE sort of thing. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. And then built into the cabinet was an ash tray right now next to it. And then built into the cabinet was an ash tray right now next to it. Yeah right, and in the early days were coming out, the people who were selling games where these people who have moved over from, you know, other coin based economies. Yeah right, and in the early days were coming out, the people who were selling games where these people who have moved over from, you know, other coin based economies. Peep shows, pinball which was banned in New York City until 1978. Peep shows, pinball which was banned in New York City until 1978. For awhile it was considered gambling. For awhile it was considered gambling. Exactly, and so games come out of that history and you know, in, you know, they grew up during the 80s or in time of like the moral majority, and there's sort of a set of things, I, I mean you know. Exactly, and so games come out of that history and you know, in, you know, they grew up during the 80s or in time of like the moral majority, and there's sort of a set of things, I, I mean you know. And I think that obviously politically it's been very complicated, games' relationship to violence, etcetera etcetera. And I think that obviously politically it's been very complicated, games' relationship to violence, etcetera etcetera. But like, I think the big thing is that people's relationship to games are, is most, most pronounced in the sense that they think of games as being guilt. But like, I think the big thing is that people's relationship to games are, is most, most pronounced in the sense that they think of games as being guilt. You know, the way people talk about games is like oh, it's a guilty sort of thing. You know, the way people talk about games is like oh, it's a guilty sort of thing. I don't know if we're ready to be in a place where when you do something like play a game, which is not useful, right? I don't know if we're ready to be in a place where when you do something like play a game, which is not useful, right? It's not work. It's not work. It doesn't produce anything. It doesn't produce anything. It's just fun. It's just fun. I'd like to, I hope that we can move to a place where that, that feeling of joy when you play a game is something that people can be proud of, not something that they're embarrassed of. I'd like to, I hope that we can move to a place where that, that feeling of joy when you play a game is something that people can be proud of, not something that they're embarrassed of. Right. Right. And, and, and but that's, I mean, you said it perfectly, that's why I don't understand. And, and, and but that's, I mean, you said it perfectly, that's why I don't understand. We use all these other mediums as a, as a, as a, you know, vessel for escapism. We use all these other mediums as a, as a, as a, you know, vessel for escapism. Right. Right. Whether it's comic books, or movies or music or any other sort of, you know, content that you absorb like that, but when it comes to games, where you're arguably more involved. Whether it's comic books, or movies or music or any other sort of, you know, content that you absorb like that, but when it comes to games, where you're arguably more involved. Right. Right. And it's more of, it's a two-way street when it comes to that interactive medium, it's just, you know, it's cast with this such, such an evil brush. And it's more of, it's a two-way street when it comes to that interactive medium, it's just, you know, it's cast with this such, such an evil brush. And I, I don't really understand why. And I, I don't really understand why. Yeah. Yeah. I mean like we're, and, and you and I are, are very sort of ingrained in the industry. I mean like we're, and, and you and I are, are very sort of ingrained in the industry. So we, we know it's important and we have this self sort of, you know realization that it is important. So we, we know it's important and we have this self sort of, you know realization that it is important. But, you know if, look, it doesn't help that we're the most violent country in the world. But, you know if, look, it doesn't help that we're the most violent country in the world. [LAUGH] That, that that does not help things at all. [LAUGH] That, that that does not help things at all. That, yeah, that... That, yeah, that... You know, the, the connection there is just too easy to make. You know, the, the connection there is just too easy to make. Right. Right. For someone just reading a headline. For someone just reading a headline. Yeah. Yeah. So, I think there's a lot of things that we struggle with, but when you look in other cultures in other countries around the world, I mean it's celebrated. So, I think there's a lot of things that we struggle with, but when you look in other cultures in other countries around the world, I mean it's celebrated. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you go to South Korea, it's, it's. I mean, you go to South Korea, it's, it's. And Germany, they have a board game award, yeah. And Germany, they have a board game award, yeah. It's an economy, it's. It's an economy, it's. I mean, they, they build stadiums to, to watch these events happen, Sso I don't know what it is about us, specifically. I mean, they, they build stadiums to, to watch these events happen, Sso I don't know what it is about us, specifically. Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, it's also been politically a very a complicated issue. Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, it's also been politically a very a complicated issue. You know, we just, this is recent memory but the Supreme Court came, you know, two votes away. You know, we just, this is recent memory but the Supreme Court came, you know, two votes away. I mean, thank god it went through but you know, games were very close to being criminalized. I mean, thank god it went through but you know, games were very close to being criminalized. Yeah. Yeah. With alcohol, tobacco and firearms, which is crazy With alcohol, tobacco and firearms, which is crazy Absolutely crazy. Absolutely crazy. But that's how close he came. But that's how close he came. And I think in some ways games have become like a very convenient shorthand particularly for, for you know, I think particularly for, for liberals who are looking for a place that they can appeal to a more conservative base around like censorship, right? And I think in some ways games have become like a very convenient shorthand particularly for, for you know, I think particularly for, for liberals who are looking for a place that they can appeal to a more conservative base around like censorship, right? Right Right And yet the thought is that you know, games can, well certainly the fight for, for music, well that was already lost, kind of, in the 90s, and the fight for film was, kind of ended. And yet the thought is that you know, games can, well certainly the fight for, for music, well that was already lost, kind of, in the 90s, and the fight for film was, kind of ended. For censorship in film ended when the Hayes code ended in the 50s, but game served is, like, a pretty convenient place for people, pretty good for politicians to look like they were, you know, that they Were hard on, ya know, moral issues. For censorship in film ended when the Hayes code ended in the 50s, but game served is, like, a pretty convenient place for people, pretty good for politicians to look like they were, you know, that they Were hard on, ya know, moral issues. And all the game companies don't do themselves a lot of favors, I mean they don't lobby on the hill, they're not act. And all the game companies don't do themselves a lot of favors, I mean they don't lobby on the hill, they're not act. I mean they're just starting to, to develop that presence with organizations like, you know like the ESA, but like, those are the place, like you want to get recognized like you got to be And. I mean they're just starting to, to develop that presence with organizations like, you know like the ESA, but like, those are the place, like you want to get recognized like you got to be And. And this is a big reason why kill screen exists you wanna get recognized by a wider culture, you have to be in places where culture is and it's nice to see developments like you know war gaming, working with the Royal Air Force. And this is a big reason why kill screen exists you wanna get recognized by a wider culture, you have to be in places where culture is and it's nice to see developments like you know war gaming, working with the Royal Air Force. Sure. Sure. [INAUDIBLE] you know Uncover, Spitfire or Airplane or Nintendo working with the Lourve or you know like, you know or the game studio game [UNKNOWN] is working on a game Bounded with the Danish Youth National Youth Ballet. [INAUDIBLE] you know Uncover, Spitfire or Airplane or Nintendo working with the Lourve or you know like, you know or the game studio game [UNKNOWN] is working on a game Bounded with the Danish Youth National Youth Ballet. Like if games aren't in these places. Like if games aren't in these places. Yeah. Yeah. You know, if games aren't building bridges, they'll always be an island and if your an island, it's a lot, you're much easier to [CROSSTALK]. You know, if games aren't building bridges, they'll always be an island and if your an island, it's a lot, you're much easier to [CROSSTALK]. You think oh, yeah, games are just some other place. You think oh, yeah, games are just some other place. So, I mean, that's a big reason why Kill Screen exists. So, I mean, that's a big reason why Kill Screen exists. So like the more that we can build those to facilitate those connections to these places where games aren't the better we'll be, but also the harder it will be for, you know, for things like the Supreme Court case, or the next, you know, God forbid, the next big shooting. So like the more that we can build those to facilitate those connections to these places where games aren't the better we'll be, but also the harder it will be for, you know, for things like the Supreme Court case, or the next, you know, God forbid, the next big shooting. Yeah. Yeah. Or something that comes up. Or something that comes up. It won't be as hard, if games become more integrated and sort of like the wider culture, than, you know, then hopefully it'll become a standardized thing. It won't be as hard, if games become more integrated and sort of like the wider culture, than, you know, then hopefully it'll become a standardized thing. And it's generational too, I mean, you know, I think that that's part of it, as well. And it's generational too, I mean, you know, I think that that's part of it, as well. You, you can, yeah, you can't sort of forget about the fact that, you know, when we are in our fifties, you know, we will be amongst people who grew up playing Doom and doing, and doing all these things where that sort of separation the, you know the ability to like, have these two detached generations that one just has no idea what the other one is saying. You, you can, yeah, you can't sort of forget about the fact that, you know, when we are in our fifties, you know, we will be amongst people who grew up playing Doom and doing, and doing all these things where that sort of separation the, you know the ability to like, have these two detached generations that one just has no idea what the other one is saying. Right. Right. It won't, there won't be that, that boundary anymore. It won't, there won't be that, that boundary anymore. I, you think so? I, you think so? I mean, I, I feel like generational gaps. I mean, I, I feel like generational gaps. You know. You know. I'm saying, I'm saying, like, we will on. I'm saying, I'm saying, like, we will on. I, I think as we get older we will be better able to understand. I, I think as we get older we will be better able to understand. We'll be in charge, yeah. We'll be in charge, yeah. Right. Right. We'll be in charge We'll be in charge [MUSIC] [MUSIC] Hey everyone it's Tuesday March 25th, 2014, thanks for tuning into the 404 show on CNET. Hey everyone it's Tuesday March 25th, 2014, thanks for tuning into the 404 show on CNET. I'm Jeff Bakalar. I'm Jeff Bakalar. We've got Ariel Nunez in the back rockin the board. We've got Ariel Nunez in the back rockin the board. Thanks for bein here, Ariel. Thanks for bein here, Ariel. Of course. Of course. Very special guest today. Very special guest today. I just met this man, but I like him a great deal already. I just met this man, but I like him a great deal already. I just wandered in. I just wandered in. You just wandered in off the streets? You just wandered in off the streets? The door was, door was open. The door was, door was open. You're a street dweller, it's fine. You're a street dweller, it's fine. That's the kind of audience we like on this program. That's the kind of audience we like on this program. [LAUGH] Jamin Warren founder of Kill Screen. [LAUGH] Jamin Warren founder of Kill Screen. Thanks for being here man. Thanks for being here man. Of course, yeah not a problem at all. Of course, yeah not a problem at all. I, I, I really like your website. I, I, I really like your website. I love your show PBS Game/Show on YouTube, fantastic. I love your show PBS Game/Show on YouTube, fantastic. I also love it. I also love it. I, I'm biased, admittedly. I, I'm biased, admittedly. That, that's fine. That, that's fine. You should be biased towards your own content. You should be biased towards your own content. Give give everyone listening and watching a quick sort of rundown. Give give everyone listening and watching a quick sort of rundown. What is Kill Screen, what's the Game/Show and all that stuff? What is Kill Screen, what's the Game/Show and all that stuff? Yeah, my background, I was a reporter at the Wall Street Journal. Yeah, my background, I was a reporter at the Wall Street Journal. I covered arts and entertainment for them. I covered arts and entertainment for them. I was originally, I was a music critic. I was originally, I was a music critic. Okay. Okay. I worked for Pitchfork. I worked for Pitchfork. Oh, right on. Oh, right on. And, at the time the Journal was looking for someone to cover music esoteric music, and I kind of like lucked up, fell into this job, and while I was there I got really interested in games. And, at the time the Journal was looking for someone to cover music esoteric music, and I kind of like lucked up, fell into this job, and while I was there I got really interested in games. I've played games my whole life. I've played games my whole life. Sure. Sure. I felt like the problem was that you know for me as a game player the conversations I started to have with game designers was, I didn't feel that they were really being reflected. I felt like the problem was that you know for me as a game player the conversations I started to have with game designers was, I didn't feel that they were really being reflected. The type of content that was being created. The type of content that was being created. This was four years ago that I think a lot of things actually changed in terms of elevating around games. This was four years ago that I think a lot of things actually changed in terms of elevating around games. But the big mission for Kill Screen, you know, we want to show the world why games matter. But the big mission for Kill Screen, you know, we want to show the world why games matter. Initially we started as a print publication. Initially we started as a print publication. Which you can see, we still do it twice a year. Which you can see, we still do it twice a year. Publish on our, on our website and then we do a daily website just sprucing content and stories around games. Publish on our, on our website and then we do a daily website just sprucing content and stories around games. And then one of our hallmarks has been, has been partnerships so. And then one of our hallmarks has been, has been partnerships so. You know we've worked with the museum of modern art in New York City to do the first ever arcade, and then help them take games into the permanent collection. You know we've worked with the museum of modern art in New York City to do the first ever arcade, and then help them take games into the permanent collection. We did some programming for The New York film festival am we're curating a gaming track at [INAUDIBLE] in Asheville, North Carolina. We did some programming for The New York film festival am we're curating a gaming track at [INAUDIBLE] in Asheville, North Carolina. Which is an amazing electronic music festival. Which is an amazing electronic music festival. If any folks are in Asheville, they should check it out. If any folks are in Asheville, they should check it out. And then recently I started hosting a show for PBS called Game Show, which extends some of the things we've tried to do with Kill Screen. And then recently I started hosting a show for PBS called Game Show, which extends some of the things we've tried to do with Kill Screen. Out into, you know out into the internets on the YouTubes. Out into, you know out into the internets on the YouTubes. Right on. Right on. Just asking like a big questions and trying to see what we can explore there. Just asking like a big questions and trying to see what we can explore there. It seems like the mantra, the theme throughout whether it's the show or, or the site itself is, is that games are a bigger deal then people sort of write them off as. It seems like the mantra, the theme throughout whether it's the show or, or the site itself is, is that games are a bigger deal then people sort of write them off as. Yeah, I mean I think there are lots of reason why. Yeah, I mean I think there are lots of reason why. There are lots of reasons which you know, I don't know if necessarily have time to go into all of them. There are lots of reasons which you know, I don't know if necessarily have time to go into all of them. I think there are wide variety why games kind of hold the place that they do in pop culture, and some of it is cultural, some of it's just for us as Americans in particular. I think there are wide variety why games kind of hold the place that they do in pop culture, and some of it is cultural, some of it's just for us as Americans in particular. We have a lot, a lot of uncertainty about the role that play should play in everyday life like a lot of people describe themselves to be guilty gamers or addiction. We have a lot, a lot of uncertainty about the role that play should play in everyday life like a lot of people describe themselves to be guilty gamers or addiction. WE use a lot of negative language to describe games and I think the place that we tried to play, is how can we identify other places where we think games should be and try to serve as a conduit to get games into those particular places, so. WE use a lot of negative language to describe games and I think the place that we tried to play, is how can we identify other places where we think games should be and try to serve as a conduit to get games into those particular places, so. There, I mean there's, you know, I think at heart, you know, if you asked, I'm sure if you asked a big room of 100 people how many of you identify as a gamer. There, I mean there's, you know, I think at heart, you know, if you asked, I'm sure if you asked a big room of 100 people how many of you identify as a gamer. Maybe, you know, a certain percentage, a small percentage might identify themselves. Maybe, you know, a certain percentage, a small percentage might identify themselves. If you asked them how many have a game on their iPhone, or whatever, everyone will say, every, almost universal. If you asked them how many have a game on their iPhone, or whatever, everyone will say, every, almost universal. So, you know, a lot of it is translating, I think everybody's a gamer. So, you know, a lot of it is translating, I think everybody's a gamer. I think not everybody self-identifies as a gamer, and so, I think giving people reasons why they should self-identify as a game-player, you know it's a big reason why, why [CROSSTALK]. I think not everybody self-identifies as a gamer, and so, I think giving people reasons why they should self-identify as a game-player, you know it's a big reason why, why [CROSSTALK]. For sure. For sure. And we, and we talked briefly before we, we started recording here, about the stigma that comes along with being self-identified as a gamer. And we, and we talked briefly before we, we started recording here, about the stigma that comes along with being self-identified as a gamer. And we'll get into get a little more into that in a few minutes, but I want to quickly talk about the conference. And we'll get into get a little more into that in a few minutes, but I want to quickly talk about the conference. Yeah. Yeah. That Kill Screen is putting together. That Kill Screen is putting together. Tell us a little bit about that. Tell us a little bit about that. Yeah. Yeah. Last year we, we did it for the first time it's called 256 it's in Brooklyn, New York on May 16th, and it's a games, arts, and culture conference. Last year we, we did it for the first time it's called 256 it's in Brooklyn, New York on May 16th, and it's a games, arts, and culture conference. And you know, I've been to lots of game conferences, and you know they typically run two different types. And you know, I've been to lots of game conferences, and you know they typically run two different types. There's kinda like big public fan fests, you know, there's E3 and pacts and [INAUDIBLE], GamesCom and industry-centric stuff. There's kinda like big public fan fests, you know, there's E3 and pacts and [INAUDIBLE], GamesCom and industry-centric stuff. Like the Dice conference in Las Vegas, there's Game Developers' Conference. Like the Dice conference in Las Vegas, there's Game Developers' Conference. And, I wanted to do something particularly here in New York City that would be in between those two worlds, with a particular eye towards getting people who wouldn't be associate with games. And, I wanted to do something particularly here in New York City that would be in between those two worlds, with a particular eye towards getting people who wouldn't be associate with games. Getting them in a conversation with game designers. Getting them in a conversation with game designers. So last year we had folks like the founder of 4Chan, Chris Pool was on stage was on stage with behavioral psychologist Jeff Lynn, from Riot Games that works on League of Legends managing online communities. So last year we had folks like the founder of 4Chan, Chris Pool was on stage was on stage with behavioral psychologist Jeff Lynn, from Riot Games that works on League of Legends managing online communities. Founders of Kickstarter and 4Square talking about game mechanics. Founders of Kickstarter and 4Square talking about game mechanics. This year we're super excited, we got a great lineup, Alexis O'Hannon, one of the co-founders of reddit will be one of our speakers Tarr and Zack Adams the guys who created Dwarf Fortress. This year we're super excited, we got a great lineup, Alexis O'Hannon, one of the co-founders of reddit will be one of our speakers Tarr and Zack Adams the guys who created Dwarf Fortress. Cool Cool That's a very rare public appearance for those guys Skip Leasey, who has just won an Oscar for sound editing the film Gravity. That's a very rare public appearance for those guys Skip Leasey, who has just won an Oscar for sound editing the film Gravity. He'll be on stage with Pat Balthrup who did all the sound design for Bioshock infinite. He'll be on stage with Pat Balthrup who did all the sound design for Bioshock infinite. We did a session on [INAUDIBLE] balls I mean we are really interested in, how can we get like one person from inside the world of games, and one person from outside the world of games, can talk about [INAUDIBLE] common issues am so psyched about it, and yes it's on sale now. We did a session on [INAUDIBLE] balls I mean we are really interested in, how can we get like one person from inside the world of games, and one person from outside the world of games, can talk about [INAUDIBLE] common issues am so psyched about it, and yes it's on sale now. Yes so where can people go and. Yes so where can people go and. They can go to 256.com Two Five Six.com. They can go to 256.com Two Five Six.com. Okay. Okay. And you can check it out on our website codescreendaily as well. And you can check it out on our website codescreendaily as well. Excellent. Excellent. Yeah. Yeah. This is very cool. This is very cool. I am on stage all day, so I do your job. I am on stage all day, so I do your job. Can you handle it? Can you handle it? I get, yeah. I get, yeah. I I You get fatigued? You get fatigued? My hope this year is not as much crying as last year. My hope this year is not as much crying as last year. There was a lot of crying last year? There was a lot of crying last year? Yeah a lot, a lot I got really emotional most of the time. Yeah a lot, a lot I got really emotional most of the time. It seems like it's that kind of conference. It seems like it's that kind of conference. Yeah, everyone. Yeah, everyone. You know, I cry. You know, I cry. Tears are shed. Tears are shed. Yeah just cry. Yeah just cry. That's good. That's good. You want that kind of emotion being. You want that kind of emotion being. Cathartic. Cathartic. Yeah, it's, it's You should absolutely. Yeah, it's, it's You should absolutely. Life changing. Life changing. It's a little bit of like emotional detox. It's a little bit of like emotional detox. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. That some people need to go through every now and then. That some people need to go through every now and then. A cleanse. A cleanse. In their life. In their life. Yeah exactly. Yeah exactly. Alright let's get to some topics. Alright let's get to some topics. A lot of our listeners are gamers and they take what you and I are so passionate about very seriously. A lot of our listeners are gamers and they take what you and I are so passionate about very seriously. I wanna talk first about the the award show that just happened recently at GEC the independent games festival. I wanna talk first about the the award show that just happened recently at GEC the independent games festival. Yeah. Yeah. The awards went out, and I think a lot of this discussion revolves more around labels. The awards went out, and I think a lot of this discussion revolves more around labels. And we said we were gonna talk about the stigmas of being a gamer. And we said we were gonna talk about the stigmas of being a gamer. But what I thought was really interesting was an article you guys put up about the creator of Papers, Please, which is a very interesting game that everyone should go check out. But what I thought was really interesting was an article you guys put up about the creator of Papers, Please, which is a very interesting game that everyone should go check out. It's not cut from the same cloth as a lot of the mainstream games people have become accustomed to. It's not cut from the same cloth as a lot of the mainstream games people have become accustomed to. But nevertheless, the creator of this game, Lucas Pope, sort of put labels into perspective and said, you know, triple A games, indie games, there's really no reason for any of this nomenclature you know, it's kind of like needs to be tossed, tossed out I have my own reservations about that statement. But nevertheless, the creator of this game, Lucas Pope, sort of put labels into perspective and said, you know, triple A games, indie games, there's really no reason for any of this nomenclature you know, it's kind of like needs to be tossed, tossed out I have my own reservations about that statement. Right. Right. But, I'm curious what you think about it personally. But, I'm curious what you think about it personally. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's funny with any games, I think a lot of the language there has been adopted from other mediums. Yeah, I mean, you know, it's funny with any games, I think a lot of the language there has been adopted from other mediums. So, independent music, independent films. So, independent music, independent films. I think the thing that needs some context is that, games by virtue, being a digital medium, are growing up in a different environment. I think the thing that needs some context is that, games by virtue, being a digital medium, are growing up in a different environment. And so, what the term independent means for games, I think immediately, becomes, this like, really, sort of like, but what constitutes indie, right? And so, what the term independent means for games, I think immediately, becomes, this like, really, sort of like, but what constitutes indie, right? Right. Right. Of course. Of course. Like, what makes and indie game? Like, what makes and indie game? And we have a guy who's winning, you know, three awards at the Independent Games festival saying, well I'm not really even sure what this term even means. And we have a guy who's winning, you know, three awards at the Independent Games festival saying, well I'm not really even sure what this term even means. Right. Right. I'm wondering if the classifications that we have between indie and mainstream slash triple A. I'm wondering if the classifications that we have between indie and mainstream slash triple A. Are those the most effective ones that we could be, you know I'm, I'm not saying that there are other things that we should be using instead, but clearly like, those seem to be maybe too coarse. Are those the most effective ones that we could be, you know I'm, I'm not saying that there are other things that we should be using instead, but clearly like, those seem to be maybe too coarse. Sure. Sure. it, I think if you ask someone like, what is an indie game, I think, I dunno what do you think? it, I think if you ask someone like, what is an indie game, I think, I dunno what do you think? What, what's an indie game for you? What, what's an indie game for you? Well, exactly, let's think I think that for me it's about the budget, and it's about what went into it really. Well, exactly, let's think I think that for me it's about the budget, and it's about what went into it really. And, and when you, when you look at manpower and you look at resources and you look at like what was the, you know, what was the overhead. And, and when you, when you look at manpower and you look at resources and you look at like what was the, you know, what was the overhead. And for me, that's what really constitutes it. And for me, that's what really constitutes it. We sort of just clump all these things into one label, and you know, seal it up, and say okay, here's an indie game. We sort of just clump all these things into one label, and you know, seal it up, and say okay, here's an indie game. But I think the bigger issue with, with like trying to put triple A and indie into perspective is, you know, it's really about, at the end of the day, it's about making money. But I think the bigger issue with, with like trying to put triple A and indie into perspective is, you know, it's really about, at the end of the day, it's about making money. Okay? Okay? Yeah. Yeah. And you can't, you know, just the same way the indie you know renaissance hit the film industry, and you know, I guess in the 2000's where you had all these films getting made for you know, well under $5 million, but then going to the box office and making you know, hundreds of millions of dollars. And you can't, you know, just the same way the indie you know renaissance hit the film industry, and you know, I guess in the 2000's where you had all these films getting made for you know, well under $5 million, but then going to the box office and making you know, hundreds of millions of dollars. You can charge the same amount of money for whatever movie you see. You can charge the same amount of money for whatever movie you see. Right. Right. You can't charge the same amount of money for any game you play. You can't charge the same amount of money for any game you play. Right, right. Right, right. So there's that weird sort of, you know incongruency there. So there's that weird sort of, you know incongruency there. Right. Right. So I mean, the question, it's a matter of sides, so like where's the cut off then. So I mean, the question, it's a matter of sides, so like where's the cut off then. I mean, if Titan Fall is like, [UNKNOWN] had like 60, 60 people something like that, work on it and probably they work with international art teams for the outsource, that happens a lot. I mean, if Titan Fall is like, [UNKNOWN] had like 60, 60 people something like that, work on it and probably they work with international art teams for the outsource, that happens a lot. But the core team, my understanding is about five dozen people. But the core team, my understanding is about five dozen people. And they make it, they made a game that's gonna be one of the most polished things that comes out this year. And they make it, they made a game that's gonna be one of the most polished things that comes out this year. Sure. Sure. So, that's the upper end, like, is it 20, is it 15. So, that's the upper end, like, is it 20, is it 15. Absolutely, and it's tough to really say, you know, what you know, what constitutes. Absolutely, and it's tough to really say, you know, what you know, what constitutes. Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Was that indy? Was that indy? Because well, no, they didn't meet the 35 employee threshold. Because well, no, they didn't meet the 35 employee threshold. So, to me, you know, it really, like I enjoy all kinds of games, it doesn't matter. So, to me, you know, it really, like I enjoy all kinds of games, it doesn't matter. I don't care what it looks like, I don't care, you know, how much how long it took to make, how much it took to make, for me, I just want that experience and I want to enjoy it. I don't care what it looks like, I don't care, you know, how much how long it took to make, how much it took to make, for me, I just want that experience and I want to enjoy it. But I think when you have a lo, a lot of these outside forces, sort of pressuring these things where if you're, you know an independent game developer, I mean Mr. Pope can't get outside of the fact that he's an independent game developer. But I think when you have a lo, a lot of these outside forces, sort of pressuring these things where if you're, you know an independent game developer, I mean Mr. Pope can't get outside of the fact that he's an independent game developer. Right. Right. He's not, you know, he's wasn't signed onto like a major distribution deal. He's not, you know, he's wasn't signed onto like a major distribution deal. Right. Right. Sort like he can't. Sort like he can't. But these things they really, its the thing that, its like that's what gets so murky about it. But these things they really, its the thing that, its like that's what gets so murky about it. Right. Right. So you think about kinda first round of indies games like Braid and Meat Boy. So you think about kinda first round of indies games like Braid and Meat Boy. Yeah. Yeah. I mean they're all distributed through you know the Xbox 360. I mean they're all distributed through you know the Xbox 360. That was their principal distra, and then they, you know, got really released on you know other platforms as well but that was how they made flash, and so I think even like allegiance to steam for example you know that's a big company. That was their principal distra, and then they, you know, got really released on you know other platforms as well but that was how they made flash, and so I think even like allegiance to steam for example you know that's a big company. A lot of game developers you know if you are indie you have do things via steam, and that's why like you have to look at other mediums like DIY, and music if you like disc core records, or something like that, like literally making your own fire is cutting them out. A lot of game developers you know if you are indie you have do things via steam, and that's why like you have to look at other mediums like DIY, and music if you like disc core records, or something like that, like literally making your own fire is cutting them out. Sure. Sure. Posting or mailing stuff by hand is like, so I think the question, I, I think what's, what's hard for people to disambiguate the the creative aspect of Indie. Posting or mailing stuff by hand is like, so I think the question, I, I think what's, what's hard for people to disambiguate the the creative aspect of Indie. Which is like a strong, authored, [INAUDIBLE] personal work, right? Which is like a strong, authored, [INAUDIBLE] personal work, right? Reconciling that with, what you're saying, the commercial realities of like, well you gotta make money. Reconciling that with, what you're saying, the commercial realities of like, well you gotta make money. Right. Right. Right. Right. And I think that's really hard for people to hold in their head. And I think that's really hard for people to hold in their head. Sure. Sure. At the same time. At the same time. Those two things would become very conflicted. Those two things would become very conflicted. And I would say more so as a tougher sort of thing to figure out when it comes to gaming, because you have these very sort of, you known, parallel issues that other mediums don't have for whatever reason. And I would say more so as a tougher sort of thing to figure out when it comes to gaming, because you have these very sort of, you known, parallel issues that other mediums don't have for whatever reason. Whether it's a technological thing, it's a, it's a social thing, it's a cultural thing, they just don't have the same, you know, destructive barriers that and hurdles that the video games sort of face. Whether it's a technological thing, it's a, it's a social thing, it's a cultural thing, they just don't have the same, you know, destructive barriers that and hurdles that the video games sort of face. Right. Right. You know, the way I see it and I try and think of like a business perspective you know, you look at the the big publishers and they spend millions of dollars promoting a game, and they have this all worked through, this gigantic business plan where, you know so many other entities rely on that spending of that money You know, the way I see it and I try and think of like a business perspective you know, you look at the the big publishers and they spend millions of dollars promoting a game, and they have this all worked through, this gigantic business plan where, you know so many other entities rely on that spending of that money Yeah. Yeah. To function properly when you have a game that is quote unquote indie like a paperspleaser or a gun home. To function properly when you have a game that is quote unquote indie like a paperspleaser or a gun home. You know, that, it doesn't work into that formula or equation and you know, on our end of the field where we, we critique and we praise, and we say oh it's so great everyone. You know, that, it doesn't work into that formula or equation and you know, on our end of the field where we, we critique and we praise, and we say oh it's so great everyone. It just sort of falls outside of that big machine. It just sort of falls outside of that big machine. Right. Right. And become you know, video game. And become you know, video game. Yeah. Yeah. So it's, it's a tough sort of existence for these guys to navigate. So it's, it's a tough sort of existence for these guys to navigate. Yeah, I mean the other thing that's worth noting is well I mean yeah, cuz each medium is different right? Yeah, I mean the other thing that's worth noting is well I mean yeah, cuz each medium is different right? Sure. Sure. Whats weird about independent film from the 60s is like that was all done on the auspices of Warner Brothers and Paramount. Whats weird about independent film from the 60s is like that was all done on the auspices of Warner Brothers and Paramount. They're, they were looking for ways to minimize losses after kinda the death of the western and you know, a bunch of commercial plots. They're, they were looking for ways to minimize losses after kinda the death of the western and you know, a bunch of commercial plots. Like alright let's give a bunch of these guys, you know, George Lucas, and Fred Sporcopulo, let's just like, let's give them some money to see what they make. Like alright let's give a bunch of these guys, you know, George Lucas, and Fred Sporcopulo, let's just like, let's give them some money to see what they make. And the end up making some of the most revolutionary films of all time. And the end up making some of the most revolutionary films of all time. Sure. Sure. And that was all you know, financed by you know, big studios. And that was all you know, financed by you know, big studios. And so, you know in some ways I thought games might move in that direction but you know, another future, so maybe the term indie might be more around like labels you know. And so, you know in some ways I thought games might move in that direction but you know, another future, so maybe the term indie might be more around like labels you know. So you look at things like what Majesto is doing with Midnight City or Devolver Digital is doing, or even you know, Max Temkin who made Cards Against Humanity was, you know, I guess he sort of published Samurai Gun, which came out recently in the [INAUDIBLE] PS4. So you look at things like what Majesto is doing with Midnight City or Devolver Digital is doing, or even you know, Max Temkin who made Cards Against Humanity was, you know, I guess he sort of published Samurai Gun, which came out recently in the [INAUDIBLE] PS4. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I wonder if maybe that'll be a place where it's sort of the Indy title sort of move away from India that turn more towards like these, like micro-labels that are sort of serving the, collect all these individual. Like, I wonder if maybe that'll be a place where it's sort of the Indy title sort of move away from India that turn more towards like these, like micro-labels that are sort of serving the, collect all these individual. Right. Right. Games, if you don't wanna do like Super DIY thing, selling through your website. Games, if you don't wanna do like Super DIY thing, selling through your website. Right. Right. Maybe signing on with one of these. Maybe signing on with one of these. You know, indie publishers or something like that will give you some cache I don't know though. You know, indie publishers or something like that will give you some cache I don't know though. I mean, I just, my, my personal preference is that, I, I think that genres are a much more effective way to think about. I mean, I just, my, my personal preference is that, I, I think that genres are a much more effective way to think about. You know, I think that, you know, if you make a shooter, like Titan Fall's gonna have, like, a lot more in common with, you know, a game like, Rust, for example. You know, I think that, you know, if you make a shooter, like Titan Fall's gonna have, like, a lot more in common with, you know, a game like, Rust, for example. then, you know, then rust is going to have with, like Kerbal Space Program or something like that, so. then, you know, then rust is going to have with, like Kerbal Space Program or something like that, so. I mean, so, so, best case scenario, like in a perfect world, and I don't really have an answer for this, and I'm looking to you as, as, to sort of understand how you see it to be, what is the best way for this to play out? I mean, so, so, best case scenario, like in a perfect world, and I don't really have an answer for this, and I'm looking to you as, as, to sort of understand how you see it to be, what is the best way for this to play out? I mean I think that, you know, we should probably, I think probably the best way would be to support to identify creators and be fans of that rather than be fans of [UNKNOWN]. I mean I think that, you know, we should probably, I think probably the best way would be to support to identify creators and be fans of that rather than be fans of [UNKNOWN]. I do think there's a sense that like, oh if you sprinkle the, and it's not just limited to games. I do think there's a sense that like, oh if you sprinkle the, and it's not just limited to games. But there is a sense like oh, if you sprinkle some of that indie, if you say something's indie, that makes it a good prodicular. But there is a sense like oh, if you sprinkle some of that indie, if you say something's indie, that makes it a good prodicular. There's like a buzz or ground swell. There's like a buzz or ground swell. Exactly, and other mediums that think that they've because they're more mature they've worked those things out. Exactly, and other mediums that think that they've because they're more mature they've worked those things out. So like, universal republic, right, which releases a lot of like, quote unquote, independent music. So like, universal republic, right, which releases a lot of like, quote unquote, independent music. Right. Right. Amy Winehouses label, and but they release a lot of indie music. Amy Winehouses label, and but they release a lot of indie music. I think that it, music we have a much more I don't know, it made more cultivated sense that like, we sort of get maybe what the term independent means and that's still being worked out for games. I think that it, music we have a much more I don't know, it made more cultivated sense that like, we sort of get maybe what the term independent means and that's still being worked out for games. Sure. Sure. But I don't know. But I don't know. I probably feel like we should just abandon the term entirely, like, it's too fraught with difficulties but, I mean, I don't know. I probably feel like we should just abandon the term entirely, like, it's too fraught with difficulties but, I mean, I don't know. I guess if that's the, if that's what gets people interested in playing some of these smaller titles then so be it. I guess if that's the, if that's what gets people interested in playing some of these smaller titles then so be it. I think, I mean, it's on everybody, though and I think we can both mutually agree that they are a great [INAUDIBLE]. I think, I mean, it's on everybody, though and I think we can both mutually agree that they are a great [INAUDIBLE]. We agree, we agree on nothing. We agree, we agree on nothing. [LAUGH] [LAUGH] You know, like, it is an absolutely great thing, these games are fantastic and they, and, I mean, you know, there's really, in my opinion, no disadvantage to having them around. You know, like, it is an absolutely great thing, these games are fantastic and they, and, I mean, you know, there's really, in my opinion, no disadvantage to having them around. I feel like some people sort of have this idea, and it's almost psychotic to me, that they're bringing down the rest of the industry, and I don't even understand where that comes from. I feel like some people sort of have this idea, and it's almost psychotic to me, that they're bringing down the rest of the industry, and I don't even understand where that comes from. Yeah. Yeah. I know, I mean, I don't think it's, I don't think it's a function of I don't think it's a function of like stakes, or anything like that but, you know, I do think that labels are important. I know, I mean, I don't think it's, I don't think it's a function of I don't think it's a function of like stakes, or anything like that but, you know, I do think that labels are important. Yeah. Yeah. You know, these things, I mean these things, do matter, like, you know when steam has a Indy, they've all different types of like, action. You know, these things, I mean these things, do matter, like, you know when steam has a Indy, they've all different types of like, action. Sure. Sure. There's RPG honors and steam right? There's RPG honors and steam right? And one of them is Indie. And one of them is Indie. Right. Right. And that affects the way that people think about it. And that affects the way that people think about it. And, I'm not, I'm actually not sure if they're mutually exclusive. And, I'm not, I'm actually not sure if they're mutually exclusive. But I know that, like, you know, that does affect the way that people think. But I know that, like, you know, that does affect the way that people think. It's a psychological thing. It's a psychological thing. Yeah, it's a psychological thing. Yeah, it's a psychological thing. It's like, oh I, I like [CROSSTALK] It's like, oh I, I like [CROSSTALK] I would support that argument. I would support that argument. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, I, I see it in the comment section of a, you know, our PBS show. And, I, I see it in the comment section of a, you know, our PBS show. People talk of about sort of Indie, well,I don't really like Indy games [CROSSTALK] People talk of about sort of Indie, well,I don't really like Indy games [CROSSTALK] Right. Right. Because they have this perception that Indy games are all like [CROSSTALK] Because they have this perception that Indy games are all like [CROSSTALK] Broken [CROSSTALK] Broken [CROSSTALK] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're like computer-based simple. They're like computer-based simple. There's no rules, there's one button. There's no rules, there's one button. Yeah, or like super, like e, like super emotional black and white. Yeah, or like super, like e, like super emotional black and white. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. And I think what, what sucks, is I think that there are games that are independent games. And I think what, what sucks, is I think that there are games that are independent games. Yeah. Yeah. That people don't play, because they are scared. That people don't play, because they are scared. Sure. Sure. not, maybe not scared, is the wrong reason. not, maybe not scared, is the wrong reason. But they think that you know oh, that's gonna be too snotty. But they think that you know oh, that's gonna be too snotty. Right. Right. For me. For me. They think like oh, I'm not really an indir games person. They think like oh, I'm not really an indir games person. Sure. Sure. And that's kind of a bummer. And that's kind of a bummer. Just cuz I think that, you know, games can they really have this universal appeal. Just cuz I think that, you know, games can they really have this universal appeal. Alright so, like I said we, we are on the same page with that you know, I mean for me some of my favorite games of last year were you know, small haus games. Alright so, like I said we, we are on the same page with that you know, I mean for me some of my favorite games of last year were you know, small haus games. We call them small haus. We call them small haus. There you go, H-A-U-S. There you go, H-A-U-S. I like it. I like it. Right. Right. The The Which is some sort of beer garden. Which is some sort of beer garden. Exactly. Exactly. You know feel to it. You know feel to it. Germans, German's small haus game. Germans, German's small haus game. Yeah I like that, alright. Yeah I like that, alright. That's a property of the show here, let's not forget that no, but, you know, and, and then we, we talked you know, about Gone Home for a second. That's a property of the show here, let's not forget that no, but, you know, and, and then we, we talked you know, about Gone Home for a second. Steve Gaynor's game and, you know, he has been very vocal recently, you were telling me about the stigma of just Being a gamer. Steve Gaynor's game and, you know, he has been very vocal recently, you were telling me about the stigma of just Being a gamer. Yeah. Yeah. And I struggle with this all the time, and I don't really understand it. And I struggle with this all the time, and I don't really understand it. Is it like a cultural sort of thing where we're just not ready? Is it like a cultural sort of thing where we're just not ready? Maybe it's an American thing? Maybe it's an American thing? Yeah. Yeah. Because I feel like in other places, you know, gamers are sort of you know, made to look as these incompetent people who are wasting their lives away on their couch. Because I feel like in other places, you know, gamers are sort of you know, made to look as these incompetent people who are wasting their lives away on their couch. Yeah. Yeah. What, what do you think about all that? What, what do you think about all that? Yeah, I, I think there are long roots for why games hold the position that they do. Yeah, I, I think there are long roots for why games hold the position that they do. I mean. I mean. It's kinda the same thing as marijuana. It's kinda the same thing as marijuana. Yeah, no, I mean,in, in, in, you know, in the 80s that the way. Yeah, no, I mean,in, in, in, you know, in the 80s that the way. Think about when you went to an arcade. Think about when you went to an arcade. Yeah. Yeah. Every single arcade game had the say no to drugs. Every single arcade game had the say no to drugs. Right. Right. Right, that was the perception. Right, that was the perception. It had the say no to drugs DARE sort of thing. It had the say no to drugs DARE sort of thing. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. And then built into the cabinet was an ash tray right now next to it. And then built into the cabinet was an ash tray right now next to it. Yeah right, and in the early days were coming out, the people who were selling games where these people who have moved over from, you know, other coin based economies. Yeah right, and in the early days were coming out, the people who were selling games where these people who have moved over from, you know, other coin based economies. Peep shows, pinball which was banned in New York City until 1978. Peep shows, pinball which was banned in New York City until 1978. For awhile it was considered gambling. For awhile it was considered gambling. Exactly, and so games come out of that history and you know, in, you know, they grew up during the 80s or in time of like the moral majority, and there's sort of a set of things, I, I mean you know. Exactly, and so games come out of that history and you know, in, you know, they grew up during the 80s or in time of like the moral majority, and there's sort of a set of things, I, I mean you know. And I think that obviously politically it's been very complicated, games' relationship to violence, etcetera etcetera. And I think that obviously politically it's been very complicated, games' relationship to violence, etcetera etcetera. But like, I think the big thing is that people's relationship to games are, is most, most pronounced in the sense that they think of games as being guilt. But like, I think the big thing is that people's relationship to games are, is most, most pronounced in the sense that they think of games as being guilt. You know, the way people talk about games is like oh, it's a guilty sort of thing. You know, the way people talk about games is like oh, it's a guilty sort of thing. I don't know if we're ready to be in a place where when you do something like play a game, which is not useful, right? I don't know if we're ready to be in a place where when you do something like play a game, which is not useful, right? It's not work. It's not work. It doesn't produce anything. It doesn't produce anything. It's just fun. It's just fun. I'd like to, I hope that we can move to a place where that, that feeling of joy when you play a game is something that people can be proud of, not something that they're embarrassed of. I'd like to, I hope that we can move to a place where that, that feeling of joy when you play a game is something that people can be proud of, not something that they're embarrassed of. Right. Right. And, and, and but that's, I mean, you said it perfectly, that's why I don't understand. And, and, and but that's, I mean, you said it perfectly, that's why I don't understand. We use all these other mediums as a, as a, as a, you know, vessel for escapism. We use all these other mediums as a, as a, as a, you know, vessel for escapism. Right. Right. Whether it's comic books, or movies or music or any other sort of, you know, content that you absorb like that, but when it comes to games, where you're arguably more involved. Whether it's comic books, or movies or music or any other sort of, you know, content that you absorb like that, but when it comes to games, where you're arguably more involved. Right. Right. And it's more of, it's a two-way street when it comes to that interactive medium, it's just, you know, it's cast with this such, such an evil brush. And it's more of, it's a two-way street when it comes to that interactive medium, it's just, you know, it's cast with this such, such an evil brush. And I, I don't really understand why. And I, I don't really understand why. Yeah. Yeah. I mean like we're, and, and you and I are, are very sort of ingrained in the industry. I mean like we're, and, and you and I are, are very sort of ingrained in the industry. So we, we know it's important and we have this self sort of, you know realization that it is important. So we, we know it's important and we have this self sort of, you know realization that it is important. But, you know if, look, it doesn't help that we're the most violent country in the world. But, you know if, look, it doesn't help that we're the most violent country in the world. [LAUGH] That, that that does not help things at all. [LAUGH] That, that that does not help things at all. That, yeah, that... That, yeah, that... You know, the, the connection there is just too easy to make. You know, the, the connection there is just too easy to make. Right. Right. For someone just reading a headline. For someone just reading a headline. Yeah. Yeah. So, I think there's a lot of things that we struggle with, but when you look in other cultures in other countries around the world, I mean it's celebrated. So, I think there's a lot of things that we struggle with, but when you look in other cultures in other countries around the world, I mean it's celebrated. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you go to South Korea, it's, it's. I mean, you go to South Korea, it's, it's. And Germany, they have a board game award, yeah. And Germany, they have a board game award, yeah. It's an economy, it's. It's an economy, it's. I mean, they, they build stadiums to, to watch these events happen, Sso I don't know what it is about us, specifically. I mean, they, they build stadiums to, to watch these events happen, Sso I don't know what it is about us, specifically. Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, it's also been politically a very a complicated issue. Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, it's also been politically a very a complicated issue. You know, we just, this is recent memory but the Supreme Court came, you know, two votes away. You know, we just, this is recent memory but the Supreme Court came, you know, two votes away. I mean, thank god it went through but you know, games were very close to being criminalized. I mean, thank god it went through but you know, games were very close to being criminalized. Yeah. Yeah. With alcohol, tobacco and firearms, which is crazy With alcohol, tobacco and firearms, which is crazy Absolutely crazy. Absolutely crazy. But that's how close he came. But that's how close he came. And I think in some ways games have become like a very convenient shorthand particularly for, for you know, I think particularly for, for liberals who are looking for a place that they can appeal to a more conservative base around like censorship, right? And I think in some ways games have become like a very convenient shorthand particularly for, for you know, I think particularly for, for liberals who are looking for a place that they can appeal to a more conservative base around like censorship, right? Right Right And yet the thought is that you know, games can, well certainly the fight for, for music, well that was already lost, kind of, in the 90s, and the fight for film was, kind of ended. And yet the thought is that you know, games can, well certainly the fight for, for music, well that was already lost, kind of, in the 90s, and the fight for film was, kind of ended. For censorship in film ended when the Hayes code ended in the 50s, but game served is, like, a pretty convenient place for people, pretty good for politicians to look like they were, you know, that they Were hard on, ya know, moral issues. For censorship in film ended when the Hayes code ended in the 50s, but game served is, like, a pretty convenient place for people, pretty good for politicians to look like they were, you know, that they Were hard on, ya know, moral issues. And all the game companies don't do themselves a lot of favors, I mean they don't lobby on the hill, they're not act. And all the game companies don't do themselves a lot of favors, I mean they don't lobby on the hill, they're not act. I mean they're just starting to, to develop that presence with organizations like, you know like the ESA, but like, those are the place, like you want to get recognized like you got to be And. I mean they're just starting to, to develop that presence with organizations like, you know like the ESA, but like, those are the place, like you want to get recognized like you got to be And. And this is a big reason why kill screen exists you wanna get recognized by a wider culture, you have to be in places where culture is and it's nice to see developments like you know war gaming, working with the Royal Air Force. And this is a big reason why kill screen exists you wanna get recognized by a wider culture, you have to be in places where culture is and it's nice to see developments like you know war gaming, working with the Royal Air Force. Sure. Sure. [INAUDIBLE] you know Uncover, Spitfire or Airplane or Nintendo working with the Lourve or you know like, you know or the game studio game [UNKNOWN] is working on a game Bounded with the Danish Youth National Youth Ballet. [INAUDIBLE] you know Uncover, Spitfire or Airplane or Nintendo working with the Lourve or you know like, you know or the game studio game [UNKNOWN] is working on a game Bounded with the Danish Youth National Youth Ballet. Like if games aren't in these places. Like if games aren't in these places. Yeah. Yeah. You know, if games aren't building bridges, they'll always be an island and if your an island, it's a lot, you're much easier to [CROSSTALK]. You know, if games aren't building bridges, they'll always be an island and if your an island, it's a lot, you're much easier to [CROSSTALK]. You think oh, yeah, games are just some other place. You think oh, yeah, games are just some other place. So, I mean, that's a big reason why Kill Screen exists. So, I mean, that's a big reason why Kill Screen exists. So like the more that we can build those to facilitate those connections to these places where games aren't the better we'll be, but also the harder it will be for, you know, for things like the Supreme Court case, or the next, you know, God forbid, the next big shooting. So like the more that we can build those to facilitate those connections to these places where games aren't the better we'll be, but also the harder it will be for, you know, for things like the Supreme Court case, or the next, you know, God forbid, the next big shooting. Yeah. Yeah. Or something that comes up. Or something that comes up. It won't be as hard, if games become more integrated and sort of like the wider culture, than, you know, then hopefully it'll become a standardized thing. It won't be as hard, if games become more integrated and sort of like the wider culture, than, you know, then hopefully it'll become a standardized thing. And it's generational too, I mean, you know, I think that that's part of it, as well. And it's generational too, I mean, you know, I think that that's part of it, as well. You, you can, yeah, you can't sort of forget about the fact that, you know, when we are in our fifties, you know, we will be amongst people who grew up playing Doom and doing, and doing all these things where that sort of separation the, you know the ability to like, have these two detached generations that one just has no idea what the other one is saying. You, you can, yeah, you can't sort of forget about the fact that, you know, when we are in our fifties, you know, we will be amongst people who grew up playing Doom and doing, and doing all these things where that sort of separation the, you know the ability to like, have these two detached generations that one just has no idea what the other one is saying. Right. Right. It won't, there won't be that, that boundary anymore. It won't, there won't be that, that boundary anymore. I, you think so? I, you think so? I mean, I, I feel like generational gaps. I mean, I, I feel like generational gaps. You know. You know. I'm saying, I'm saying, like, we will on. I'm saying, I'm saying, like, we will on. I, I think as we get older we will be better able to understand. I, I think as we get older we will be better able to understand. We'll be in charge, yeah. We'll be in charge, yeah. Right. Right. We'll be in charge We'll be in charge but I'm saying, like, there won't be that divide where it's sort of like this us versus them sort of thing. but I'm saying, like, there won't be that divide where it's sort of like this us versus them sort of thing. Where, I think the more it's ingrained into our culture, you almost have to, I mean, like how could it not? Where, I think the more it's ingrained into our culture, you almost have to, I mean, like how could it not? Yeah, [CROSSTALK]. Yeah, [CROSSTALK]. It happened with every other medium. It happened with every other medium. You know, it's funny, I, I think one of the things that probably will happen with games though, is that you know, older gamers are gonna take it'll be a high culture low culture thing. You know, it's funny, I, I think one of the things that probably will happen with games though, is that you know, older gamers are gonna take it'll be a high culture low culture thing. Oh yeah, we'll. Oh yeah, we'll. Yeah. Yeah. They'll be snobs about it. They'll be snobs about it. Yeah. Yeah. Oh absolutely. Oh absolutely. I kind of figure it's happening I kind of figure it's happening Already, already very snoppy. Already, already very snoppy. And I'm okay with that. And I'm okay with that. Everyone needs to have an opinion. Everyone needs to have an opinion. Your pinky's up when you play, when you play your. Your pinky's up when you play, when you play your. Right. Right. Yeah exactly, exactly. Yeah exactly, exactly. Super, right? Super, right? You like appreciate the finer things. You like appreciate the finer things. Yeah exactly. Yeah exactly. And you don't like that everything's digital, you like being able to open the case and smell the disk. And you don't like that everything's digital, you like being able to open the case and smell the disk. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder about that with virtual reality, whether that, because there was a big jump between 2D and 3D where people got left behind. I wonder about that with virtual reality, whether that, because there was a big jump between 2D and 3D where people got left behind. Right. Right. And I wonder about that. And I wonder about that. Those severely uncoordinated people. Those severely uncoordinated people. I know people, you know, they had a hard, getting that Z axis. I know people, you know, they had a hard, getting that Z axis. It was a tough axis. It was a tough axis. Right. Right. The Z one, it jumps at you literally of all the axis. The Z one, it jumps at you literally of all the axis. I wondered about virtual reality and whether that might be one of these big seismic shifts where. I wondered about virtual reality and whether that might be one of these big seismic shifts where. But, do you think virtual reality will be as pervasive? But, do you think virtual reality will be as pervasive? I don't know, well, I don't know if it is going to happen like next year. I don't know, well, I don't know if it is going to happen like next year. Yeah. Yeah. But clearly we're in a place, clearly we're in a place where I'm not, I don't know, nobody's really set price points yet for, for Morpheus. But clearly we're in a place, clearly we're in a place where I'm not, I don't know, nobody's really set price points yet for, for Morpheus. Sure. Sure. And I don't think Morpheus is gonna show its face any time before, 16, 17. And I don't think Morpheus is gonna show its face any time before, 16, 17. Yeah, it'll $900. Yeah, it'll $900. Yeah, I mean, I just. Yeah, I mean, I just. Right? Right? Like can we really envision, and let's get into this VR conversation. Like can we really envision, and let's get into this VR conversation. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, obviously at GDC, Sony comes out and says hey, we've got our own Occulus. I mean, you know, obviously at GDC, Sony comes out and says hey, we've got our own Occulus. It's gonna be for PS4. It's gonna be for PS4. Yeah, PS4 Oculus. Yeah, PS4 Oculus. Right? Right? I mean, come on. I mean, come on. This, with these names is just killing me. This, with these names is just killing me. You know, I, I, I just, to me it's another thing that no one really has been clamoring for in my opinion, Oculus. You know, I, I, I just, to me it's another thing that no one really has been clamoring for in my opinion, Oculus. Is, is is a sideshow. Is, is is a sideshow. It's sort of this gimmicky sort of thing. It's sort of this gimmicky sort of thing. And don't get me wrong, when I wanna play something like this and have it be affordable, sure. And don't get me wrong, when I wanna play something like this and have it be affordable, sure. But we're just not there yet. But we're just not there yet. Yeah, I definitely thing it's gonna be, it's a long, this is gonna be a longer, I think the expectation that people have is that Oculus Rift is gonna come out, Project you know, Morpheus or whatever comes out. Yeah, I definitely thing it's gonna be, it's a long, this is gonna be a longer, I think the expectation that people have is that Oculus Rift is gonna come out, Project you know, Morpheus or whatever comes out. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever, I mean, there have been some other, some other competing ones now to, I think it's not, there will probably be a dominant one, a lot of it is gonna be tied to price. Whatever, I mean, there have been some other, some other competing ones now to, I think it's not, there will probably be a dominant one, a lot of it is gonna be tied to price. But it is a very new, like I would use the Oculus Rift in the new Crystal Cove version, there's a lot of potential there. But it is a very new, like I would use the Oculus Rift in the new Crystal Cove version, there's a lot of potential there. Sure. Sure. [CROSSTALK] [CROSSTALK] But I think outside the games too. But I think outside the games too. Yeah, that's what, that's what I wonder. Yeah, that's what, that's what I wonder. I mean, that was. I mean, that was. To me, it's arguably the least sort of promising, you know, application. To me, it's arguably the least sort of promising, you know, application. Yeah, well that, that what's so funny about it. Yeah, well that, that what's so funny about it. So, the, the, the Nintendo Wii, like a big reason that Nintendo was able to release the Wii was because the price of accelerometer technology. So, the, the, the Nintendo Wii, like a big reason that Nintendo was able to release the Wii was because the price of accelerometer technology. Super cheap. Super cheap. Dropped to like a couple, you know, cents on the dollar, what ever. Dropped to like a couple, you know, cents on the dollar, what ever. Yeah. Yeah. So, that allowed them to produce. So, that allowed them to produce. You know initially the thought was that you know maybe, I thought that maybe the wiimote might be the first gaming peripheral to cross over into non and you saw a couple things. You know initially the thought was that you know maybe, I thought that maybe the wiimote might be the first gaming peripheral to cross over into non and you saw a couple things. Sure Sure Wii [UNKNOWN] and stuff and then the kinect comes out and they're like, okay, maybe this will be the gaming device that crosses over and that hasn't quite happened. Wii [UNKNOWN] and stuff and then the kinect comes out and they're like, okay, maybe this will be the gaming device that crosses over and that hasn't quite happened. So I do wonder about that with the occulus like there are all these non gaming applications, I wonder if the game stopped. So I do wonder about that with the occulus like there are all these non gaming applications, I wonder if the game stopped. Cuz, cuz reality is that the games we're accustomed to playing, just in general, is like Dark Souls II or Titanfall, whatever it may be. Cuz, cuz reality is that the games we're accustomed to playing, just in general, is like Dark Souls II or Titanfall, whatever it may be. Hm. Hm. Those games are not easy to play- Those games are not easy to play- No. No. In virtual reality. In virtual reality. No. No. And- And- Well, also cuz they're not built for that many degrees of, of, you know, of your peripherals. Well, also cuz they're not built for that many degrees of, of, you know, of your peripherals. I mean, let's be honest, like when- I mean, let's be honest, like when- Yeah. Yeah. You're watching, you're watching a 2D sort of plane. You're watching, you're watching a 2D sort of plane. [CROSSTALK] So, it's sort of a huge gap that separates the VR game playing world, and the standard television game playing world. [CROSSTALK] So, it's sort of a huge gap that separates the VR game playing world, and the standard television game playing world. I wonder for VR people, I kind of wonder if this period that we're kind of in, you know in terms of shooters, and things like that, whether the next step might be towards these experiential type things. I wonder for VR people, I kind of wonder if this period that we're kind of in, you know in terms of shooters, and things like that, whether the next step might be towards these experiential type things. Sure. Sure. Like stealth games, but that the worlds of Bioshock, and I think the Walking Dead is a great example. Like stealth games, but that the worlds of Bioshock, and I think the Walking Dead is a great example. That is a game that would have worked very well at moments, in VR at moments where your Lee and then later, Clementine, just kind of like, walking through and just talking to people. That is a game that would have worked very well at moments, in VR at moments where your Lee and then later, Clementine, just kind of like, walking through and just talking to people. Sure. Sure. Because, you know, in some ways the pacing is super slow. Because, you know, in some ways the pacing is super slow. Right. Right. And I wonder, I wonder if those types of experiences are gonna be, I wonder if that's going to be a big dividing line between people in our generation and like, kids growing up. And I wonder, I wonder if those types of experiences are gonna be, I wonder if that's going to be a big dividing line between people in our generation and like, kids growing up. Yeah. Yeah. You know, You know, Of course, we always seem to over estimate the amount of movement people are wiling to endure. Of course, we always seem to over estimate the amount of movement people are wiling to endure. This is also true. This is also true. You know, I mean- You know, I mean- Neck spasms are neck spasms. Neck spasms are neck spasms. Neck spasms are a thing. Neck spasms are a thing. People are super lazy. People are super lazy. When we came out, it, it took not a very long for people to start saying, okay, I'm sick of standing. When we came out, it, it took not a very long for people to start saying, okay, I'm sick of standing. Or, Okay, I'm sick of doing, moving my arm. Or, Okay, I'm sick of doing, moving my arm. Rotator cuff injuries. Rotator cuff injuries. You know, I mean, it was, it was a legit issue, because you had all these people who were like so psyched to stand up and, and play tennis. You know, I mean, it was, it was a legit issue, because you had all these people who were like so psyched to stand up and, and play tennis. Yeah. Yeah. And bowl. And bowl. And then it was like, okay, now I'm going to play a 25 hour Zelda game standing up. And then it was like, okay, now I'm going to play a 25 hour Zelda game standing up. Right, right. Right, right. Maybe not something I want to do. Maybe not something I want to do. So, I think there's a lot of things that the RN Occulis Morphis have going for them, but it, I think people really need to realize that it will not be the sort of syfy, you know, thing that you kind of want it to be. So, I think there's a lot of things that the RN Occulis Morphis have going for them, but it, I think people really need to realize that it will not be the sort of syfy, you know, thing that you kind of want it to be. Right, yeah. Right, yeah. It's gonna have to learn there's going to be bumps and bruises along the way. It's gonna have to learn there's going to be bumps and bruises along the way. Yeah, you know, I think that the reality is that there's so many different types of games at this point, and so many different types of game players that it's nice to see certain technologies that are gonna privileged certain types of experiences. Yeah, you know, I think that the reality is that there's so many different types of games at this point, and so many different types of game players that it's nice to see certain technologies that are gonna privileged certain types of experiences. Right Right And so you know, a game like Proteus which is a big you know, big old walk outside. And so you know, a game like Proteus which is a big you know, big old walk outside. > Yeah > Yeah Like you know, a core gamer, probably not gonna be super interested in that. Like you know, a core gamer, probably not gonna be super interested in that. But you know, if the Oculus opens you up to that, I, I, think that, you know, the reality is that the best games for Oculus Rift haven't been made yet. But you know, if the Oculus opens you up to that, I, I, think that, you know, the reality is that the best games for Oculus Rift haven't been made yet. Of course. Of course. And until they are, I think you're right, I think it's going to be some time. And until they are, I think you're right, I think it's going to be some time. It's definitely not going to be something that like, I think in the next year everyone has in their home. It's definitely not going to be something that like, I think in the next year everyone has in their home. But I do think the technology is finally getting to a place that is very convincing. But I do think the technology is finally getting to a place that is very convincing. Because I remember using virtual reality in the nineties when I was a kid. Because I remember using virtual reality in the nineties when I was a kid. It's not very convincing. It's not very convincing. No No I mean I think you know, the big reason it didn't catch on is like, this kind of looks like garbage. I mean I think you know, the big reason it didn't catch on is like, this kind of looks like garbage. Right. Right. So, I'm not super interested in it so we've come a long way. So, I'm not super interested in it so we've come a long way. You've come a, a really long way but with that also comes bigger, never before, sort of, or could not have been foreseen problems. You've come a, a really long way but with that also comes bigger, never before, sort of, or could not have been foreseen problems. Well one of the things that you know, I think is really nuts is that you look at a lot of games that are being marketed for virtual reality and it's like, fear and nausea are like the two big and the we're gonna, we're gonna, scare the crap out of you. Well one of the things that you know, I think is really nuts is that you look at a lot of games that are being marketed for virtual reality and it's like, fear and nausea are like the two big and the we're gonna, we're gonna, scare the crap out of you. Yeah. Yeah. You're gonna crap yourself. You're gonna crap yourself. Like yeah, exactly. Like yeah, exactly. It's like encouraged. It's like encouraged. I don't think I would like that. I don't think I would like that. In the Garbage Pail, Garbage Pail kids like school of designs we could disgust you. In the Garbage Pail, Garbage Pail kids like school of designs we could disgust you. Right. Right. And that's when her head snaps. And that's when her head snaps. Exactly. Exactly. It does seem so strange to me, is like, it's like VR the sort of the first impulse is oh, yeah the first thing we need to do is that make sure people pee their pants, like the first thing. It does seem so strange to me, is like, it's like VR the sort of the first impulse is oh, yeah the first thing we need to do is that make sure people pee their pants, like the first thing. Yeah let's not give anyone the sensation of actual flight. Yeah let's not give anyone the sensation of actual flight. Yeah exactly. Yeah exactly. Let's just make them terrified. Let's just make them terrified. Yeah, let's not like show them beautiful things, or like virtual tourisms, like the first thing we're gonna do is make sure that you literally have a heart attack. Yeah, let's not like show them beautiful things, or like virtual tourisms, like the first thing we're gonna do is make sure that you literally have a heart attack. Why is that always the case? Why is that always the case? I don't know. I don't know. It's like what happened with those, you know, those Universal Studios, like moving screen rides. It's like what happened with those, you know, those Universal Studios, like moving screen rides. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. You know, it was never anything gorgeous. You know, it was never anything gorgeous. Yeah. Yeah. It was always like, we're gonna take you through your bloodstream [CROSSTALK] It was always like, we're gonna take you through your bloodstream [CROSSTALK] Yeah. Yeah. [LAUGH] [LAUGH] No, I don't wanna, I wanna fly over the Grand Canyon. No, I don't wanna, I wanna fly over the Grand Canyon. Well see well when I play the, the new [UNKNOWN] which isn't out yet you know I didn't actually wanna fight, I just really enjoyed flying around, and, I was like I would much rather, and maybe that's just me, I was like I, you know I'm just really just enjoying flying though space, cuz. Well see well when I play the, the new [UNKNOWN] which isn't out yet you know I didn't actually wanna fight, I just really enjoyed flying around, and, I was like I would much rather, and maybe that's just me, I was like I, you know I'm just really just enjoying flying though space, cuz. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. That's awesome. That cuz right now that costs like, you know? That cuz right now that costs like, you know? Seven and three quarters of a million dollars to do that. Seven and three quarters of a million dollars to do that. It's a huge investment. It's a huge investment. Which I have, but - [LAUGH] Which I have, but - [LAUGH] You know. You know. You just don't know if you wanna put it all in there. You just don't know if you wanna put it all in there. Yeah. Yeah. No. No. I know. I know. It's, it's, it's, kind of. It's, it's, it's, kind of. It's, it's, it's a thing. It's, it's, it's a thing. You know? You know? [LAUGH] [LAUGH] I, Its kind of a big investment for me. I, Its kind of a big investment for me. You know? You know? Right. Right. So I got to be really careful. So I got to be really careful. Well you'll save up for 2016 maybe. Well you'll save up for 2016 maybe. That's true. That's true. Yeah! Yeah! I'll save up for, for 2016. I'll save up for, for 2016. [LAUGH] Well this has been great man. [LAUGH] Well this has been great man. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for being here, I want everyone to stop what they're doing, and follow Jaymin on Twitter @jayminwar. Thanks for being here, I want everyone to stop what they're doing, and follow Jaymin on Twitter @jayminwar. Check out til screen daily. Check out til screen daily. Yeah, our conference, take a look at the conference. Yeah, our conference, take a look at the conference. 256. 256. 256 256 Alright make sure you do that. Alright make sure you do that. And you've got to come back, man. And you've got to come back, man. It's been great. It's been great. Hey, happy, happy to be here. Hey, happy, happy to be here. I'll, I'll try to wander in again sometime. I'll, I'll try to wander in again sometime. You won't know when. You won't know when. Alright. Alright. But it will, it will happen. But it will, it will happen. Just bring your sippie cup with you next time. Just bring your sippie cup with you next time. [LAUGH] That's going to do it for us. [LAUGH] That's going to do it for us. Shoot us an email, the404@cnet.com. Shoot us an email, the404@cnet.com. Let us know what you thought of Jeyman. Let us know what you thought of Jeyman. I really liked him, so if you didn't, you're wrong. I really liked him, so if you didn't, you're wrong. We'll be back here tomorrow with a brand new show. We'll be back here tomorrow with a brand new show. Follow us on Facebook, Reddit Twitter and instagram. Follow us on Facebook, Reddit Twitter and instagram. Don't forget the Facebook page is shifted gears, so make sure you go to facewook.com/the404nyc, that is our new permanent Facebook destination. Don't forget the Facebook page is shifted gears, so make sure you go to facewook.com/the404nyc, that is our new permanent Facebook destination. Also, I wanna chat about this real quick before we got to go, our iTunes sort of situation is a little screwed up with the new CNET.com, that's getting all fixed. Also, I wanna chat about this real quick before we got to go, our iTunes sort of situation is a little screwed up with the new CNET.com, that's getting all fixed. So I don't really have a date for these people, but it's gonna get fixed and we're working on it 24/7 so, sorry for any inconvenience. So I don't really have a date for these people, but it's gonna get fixed and we're working on it 24/7 so, sorry for any inconvenience. Just bear with us while we're under construction. Just bear with us while we're under construction. We need one of those like, rotating like, construction GIFs. We need one of those like, rotating like, construction GIFs. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah? Yeah? Do they make those in real life? Do they make those in real life? I feel like they might. I feel like they might. If we do, we'll just get some cones and flashing lights. If we do, we'll just get some cones and flashing lights. We'll be all set. We'll be all set. Yeah, big construction tape. Yeah, big construction tape. I would love that. I would love that. But what else would we need construction tape. But what else would we need construction tape. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Thanks again, Jamin. Thanks again, Jamin. It was great meeting you, man. It was great meeting you, man. No worries. No worries. Alright, that's gonna do it for us. Alright, that's gonna do it for us. I'm Jeff Bakalar. I'm Jeff Bakalar. This has been The 404 Show. This has been The 404 Show. High tech, low brow. High tech, low brow. I'll see you guys tomorrow. I'll see you guys tomorrow. [MUSIC]. [MUSIC]. Where, I think the more it's ingrained into our culture, you almost have to, I mean, like how could it not? Where, I think the more it's ingrained into our culture, you almost have to, I mean, like how could it not? Yeah, [CROSSTALK]. Yeah, [CROSSTALK]. It happened with every other medium. It happened with every other medium. You know, it's funny, I, I think one of the things that probably will happen with games though, is that you know, older gamers are gonna take it'll be a high culture low culture thing. You know, it's funny, I, I think one of the things that probably will happen with games though, is that you know, older gamers are gonna take it'll be a high culture low culture thing. Oh yeah, we'll. Oh yeah, we'll. Yeah. Yeah. They'll be snobs about it. They'll be snobs about it. Yeah. Yeah. Oh absolutely. Oh absolutely. I kind of figure it's happening I kind of figure it's happening Already, already very snoppy. Already, already very snoppy. And I'm okay with that. And I'm okay with that. Everyone needs to have an opinion. Everyone needs to have an opinion. Your pinky's up when you play, when you play your. Your pinky's up when you play, when you play your. Right. Right. Yeah exactly, exactly. Yeah exactly, exactly. Super, right? Super, right? You like appreciate the finer things. You like appreciate the finer things. Yeah exactly. Yeah exactly. And you don't like that everything's digital, you like being able to open the case and smell the disk. And you don't like that everything's digital, you like being able to open the case and smell the disk. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder about that with virtual reality, whether that, because there was a big jump between 2D and 3D where people got left behind. I wonder about that with virtual reality, whether that, because there was a big jump between 2D and 3D where people got left behind. Right. Right. And I wonder about that. And I wonder about that. Those severely uncoordinated people. Those severely uncoordinated people. I know people, you know, they had a hard, getting that Z axis. I know people, you know, they had a hard, getting that Z axis. It was a tough axis. It was a tough axis. Right. Right. The Z one, it jumps at you literally of all the axis. The Z one, it jumps at you literally of all the axis. I wondered about virtual reality and whether that might be one of these big seismic shifts where. I wondered about virtual reality and whether that might be one of these big seismic shifts where. But, do you think virtual reality will be as pervasive? But, do you think virtual reality will be as pervasive? I don't know, well, I don't know if it is going to happen like next year. I don't know, well, I don't know if it is going to happen like next year. Yeah. Yeah. But clearly we're in a place, clearly we're in a place where I'm not, I don't know, nobody's really set price points yet for, for Morpheus. But clearly we're in a place, clearly we're in a place where I'm not, I don't know, nobody's really set price points yet for, for Morpheus. Sure. Sure. And I don't think Morpheus is gonna show its face any time before, 16, 17. And I don't think Morpheus is gonna show its face any time before, 16, 17. Yeah, it'll $900. Yeah, it'll $900. Yeah, I mean, I just. Yeah, I mean, I just. Right? Right? Like can we really envision, and let's get into this VR conversation. Like can we really envision, and let's get into this VR conversation. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, obviously at GDC, Sony comes out and says hey, we've got our own Occulus. I mean, you know, obviously at GDC, Sony comes out and says hey, we've got our own Occulus. It's gonna be for PS4. It's gonna be for PS4. Yeah, PS4 Oculus. Yeah, PS4 Oculus. Right? Right? I mean, come on. I mean, come on. This, with these names is just killing me. This, with these names is just killing me. You know, I, I, I just, to me it's another thing that no one really has been clamoring for in my opinion, Oculus. You know, I, I, I just, to me it's another thing that no one really has been clamoring for in my opinion, Oculus. Is, is is a sideshow. Is, is is a sideshow. It's sort of this gimmicky sort of thing. It's sort of this gimmicky sort of thing. And don't get me wrong, when I wanna play something like this and have it be affordable, sure. And don't get me wrong, when I wanna play something like this and have it be affordable, sure. But we're just not there yet. But we're just not there yet. Yeah, I definitely thing it's gonna be, it's a long, this is gonna be a longer, I think the expectation that people have is that Oculus Rift is gonna come out, Project you know, Morpheus or whatever comes out. Yeah, I definitely thing it's gonna be, it's a long, this is gonna be a longer, I think the expectation that people have is that Oculus Rift is gonna come out, Project you know, Morpheus or whatever comes out. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever, I mean, there have been some other, some other competing ones now to, I think it's not, there will probably be a dominant one, a lot of it is gonna be tied to price. Whatever, I mean, there have been some other, some other competing ones now to, I think it's not, there will probably be a dominant one, a lot of it is gonna be tied to price. But it is a very new, like I would use the Oculus Rift in the new Crystal Cove version, there's a lot of potential there. But it is a very new, like I would use the Oculus Rift in the new Crystal Cove version, there's a lot of potential there. Sure. Sure. [CROSSTALK] [CROSSTALK] But I think outside the games too. But I think outside the games too. Yeah, that's what, that's what I wonder. Yeah, that's what, that's what I wonder. I mean, that was. I mean, that was. To me, it's arguably the least sort of promising, you know, application. To me, it's arguably the least sort of promising, you know, application. Yeah, well that, that what's so funny about it. Yeah, well that, that what's so funny about it. So, the, the, the Nintendo Wii, like a big reason that Nintendo was able to release the Wii was because the price of accelerometer technology. So, the, the, the Nintendo Wii, like a big reason that Nintendo was able to release the Wii was because the price of accelerometer technology. Super cheap. Super cheap. Dropped to like a couple, you know, cents on the dollar, what ever. Dropped to like a couple, you know, cents on the dollar, what ever. Yeah. Yeah. So, that allowed them to produce. So, that allowed them to produce. You know initially the thought was that you know maybe, I thought that maybe the wiimote might be the first gaming peripheral to cross over into non and you saw a couple things. You know initially the thought was that you know maybe, I thought that maybe the wiimote might be the first gaming peripheral to cross over into non and you saw a couple things. Sure Sure Wii [UNKNOWN] and stuff and then the kinect comes out and they're like, okay, maybe this will be the gaming device that crosses over and that hasn't quite happened. Wii [UNKNOWN] and stuff and then the kinect comes out and they're like, okay, maybe this will be the gaming device that crosses over and that hasn't quite happened. So I do wonder about that with the occulus like there are all these non gaming applications, I wonder if the game stopped. So I do wonder about that with the occulus like there are all these non gaming applications, I wonder if the game stopped. Cuz, cuz reality is that the games we're accustomed to playing, just in general, is like Dark Souls II or Titanfall, whatever it may be. Cuz, cuz reality is that the games we're accustomed to playing, just in general, is like Dark Souls II or Titanfall, whatever it may be. Hm. Hm. Those games are not easy to play- Those games are not easy to play- No. No. In virtual reality. In virtual reality. No. No. And- And- Well, also cuz they're not built for that many degrees of, of, you know, of your peripherals. Well, also cuz they're not built for that many degrees of, of, you know, of your peripherals. I mean, let's be honest, like when- I mean, let's be honest, like when- Yeah. Yeah. You're watching, you're watching a 2D sort of plane. You're watching, you're watching a 2D sort of plane. [CROSSTALK] So, it's sort of a huge gap that separates the VR game playing world, and the standard television game playing world. [CROSSTALK] So, it's sort of a huge gap that separates the VR game playing world, and the standard television game playing world. I wonder for VR people, I kind of wonder if this period that we're kind of in, you know in terms of shooters, and things like that, whether the next step might be towards these experiential type things. I wonder for VR people, I kind of wonder if this period that we're kind of in, you know in terms of shooters, and things like that, whether the next step might be towards these experiential type things. Sure. Sure. Like stealth games, but that the worlds of Bioshock, and I think the Walking Dead is a great example. Like stealth games, but that the worlds of Bioshock, and I think the Walking Dead is a great example. That is a game that would have worked very well at moments, in VR at moments where your Lee and then later, Clementine, just kind of like, walking through and just talking to people. That is a game that would have worked very well at moments, in VR at moments where your Lee and then later, Clementine, just kind of like, walking through and just talking to people. Sure. Sure. Because, you know, in some ways the pacing is super slow. Because, you know, in some ways the pacing is super slow. Right. Right. And I wonder, I wonder if those types of experiences are gonna be, I wonder if that's going to be a big dividing line between people in our generation and like, kids growing up. And I wonder, I wonder if those types of experiences are gonna be, I wonder if that's going to be a big dividing line between people in our generation and like, kids growing up. Yeah. Yeah. You know, You know, Of course, we always seem to over estimate the amount of movement people are wiling to endure. Of course, we always seem to over estimate the amount of movement people are wiling to endure. This is also true. This is also true. You know, I mean- You know, I mean- Neck spasms are neck spasms. Neck spasms are neck spasms. Neck spasms are a thing. Neck spasms are a thing. People are super lazy. People are super lazy. When we came out, it, it took not a very long for people to start saying, okay, I'm sick of standing. When we came out, it, it took not a very long for people to start saying, okay, I'm sick of standing. Or, Okay, I'm sick of doing, moving my arm. Or, Okay, I'm sick of doing, moving my arm. Rotator cuff injuries. Rotator cuff injuries. You know, I mean, it was, it was a legit issue, because you had all these people who were like so psyched to stand up and, and play tennis. You know, I mean, it was, it was a legit issue, because you had all these people who were like so psyched to stand up and, and play tennis. Yeah. Yeah. And bowl. And bowl. And then it was like, okay, now I'm going to play a 25 hour Zelda game standing up. And then it was like, okay, now I'm going to play a 25 hour Zelda game standing up. Right, right. Right, right. Maybe not something I want to do. Maybe not something I want to do. So, I think there's a lot of things that the RN Occulis Morphis have going for them, but it, I think people really need to realize that it will not be the sort of syfy, you know, thing that you kind of want it to be. So, I think there's a lot of things that the RN Occulis Morphis have going for them, but it, I think people really need to realize that it will not be the sort of syfy, you know, thing that you kind of want it to be. Right, yeah. Right, yeah. It's gonna have to learn there's going to be bumps and bruises along the way. It's gonna have to learn there's going to be bumps and bruises along the way. Yeah, you know, I think that the reality is that there's so many different types of games at this point, and so many different types of game players that it's nice to see certain technologies that are gonna privileged certain types of experiences. Yeah, you know, I think that the reality is that there's so many different types of games at this point, and so many different types of game players that it's nice to see certain technologies that are gonna privileged certain types of experiences. Right Right And so you know, a game like Proteus which is a big you know, big old walk outside. And so you know, a game like Proteus which is a big you know, big old walk outside. > Yeah > Yeah Like you know, a core gamer, probably not gonna be super interested in that. Like you know, a core gamer, probably not gonna be super interested in that. But you know, if the Oculus opens you up to that, I, I, think that, you know, the reality is that the best games for Oculus Rift haven't been made yet. But you know, if the Oculus opens you up to that, I, I, think that, you know, the reality is that the best games for Oculus Rift haven't been made yet. Of course. Of course. And until they are, I think you're right, I think it's going to be some time. And until they are, I think you're right, I think it's going to be some time. It's definitely not going to be something that like, I think in the next year everyone has in their home. It's definitely not going to be something that like, I think in the next year everyone has in their home. But I do think the technology is finally getting to a place that is very convincing. But I do think the technology is finally getting to a place that is very convincing. Because I remember using virtual reality in the nineties when I was a kid. Because I remember using virtual reality in the nineties when I was a kid. It's not very convincing. It's not very convincing. No No I mean I think you know, the big reason it didn't catch on is like, this kind of looks like garbage. I mean I think you know, the big reason it didn't catch on is like, this kind of looks like garbage. Right. Right. So, I'm not super interested in it so we've come a long way. So, I'm not super interested in it so we've come a long way. You've come a, a really long way but with that also comes bigger, never before, sort of, or could not have been foreseen problems. You've come a, a really long way but with that also comes bigger, never before, sort of, or could not have been foreseen problems. Well one of the things that you know, I think is really nuts is that you look at a lot of games that are being marketed for virtual reality and it's like, fear and nausea are like the two big and the we're gonna, we're gonna, scare the crap out of you. Well one of the things that you know, I think is really nuts is that you look at a lot of games that are being marketed for virtual reality and it's like, fear and nausea are like the two big and the we're gonna, we're gonna, scare the crap out of you. Yeah. Yeah. You're gonna crap yourself. You're gonna crap yourself. Like yeah, exactly. Like yeah, exactly. It's like encouraged. It's like encouraged. I don't think I would like that. I don't think I would like that. In the Garbage Pail, Garbage Pail kids like school of designs we could disgust you. In the Garbage Pail, Garbage Pail kids like school of designs we could disgust you. Right. Right. And that's when her head snaps. And that's when her head snaps. Exactly. Exactly. It does seem so strange to me, is like, it's like VR the sort of the first impulse is oh, yeah the first thing we need to do is that make sure people pee their pants, like the first thing. It does seem so strange to me, is like, it's like VR the sort of the first impulse is oh, yeah the first thing we need to do is that make sure people pee their pants, like the first thing. Yeah let's not give anyone the sensation of actual flight. Yeah let's not give anyone the sensation of actual flight. Yeah exactly. Yeah exactly. Let's just make them terrified. Let's just make them terrified. Yeah, let's not like show them beautiful things, or like virtual tourisms, like the first thing we're gonna do is make sure that you literally have a heart attack. Yeah, let's not like show them beautiful things, or like virtual tourisms, like the first thing we're gonna do is make sure that you literally have a heart attack. Why is that always the case? Why is that always the case? I don't know. I don't know. It's like what happened with those, you know, those Universal Studios, like moving screen rides. It's like what happened with those, you know, those Universal Studios, like moving screen rides. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. You know, it was never anything gorgeous. You know, it was never anything gorgeous. Yeah. Yeah. It was always like, we're gonna take you through your bloodstream [CROSSTALK] It was always like, we're gonna take you through your bloodstream [CROSSTALK] Yeah. Yeah. [LAUGH] [LAUGH] No, I don't wanna, I wanna fly over the Grand Canyon. No, I don't wanna, I wanna fly over the Grand Canyon. Well see well when I play the, the new [UNKNOWN] which isn't out yet you know I didn't actually wanna fight, I just really enjoyed flying around, and, I was like I would much rather, and maybe that's just me, I was like I, you know I'm just really just enjoying flying though space, cuz. Well see well when I play the, the new [UNKNOWN] which isn't out yet you know I didn't actually wanna fight, I just really enjoyed flying around, and, I was like I would much rather, and maybe that's just me, I was like I, you know I'm just really just enjoying flying though space, cuz. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. That's awesome. That cuz right now that costs like, you know? That cuz right now that costs like, you know? Seven and three quarters of a million dollars to do that. Seven and three quarters of a million dollars to do that. It's a huge investment. It's a huge investment. Which I have, but - [LAUGH] Which I have, but - [LAUGH] You know. You know. You just don't know if you wanna put it all in there. You just don't know if you wanna put it all in there. Yeah. Yeah. No. No. I know. I know. It's, it's, it's, kind of. It's, it's, it's, kind of. It's, it's, it's a thing. It's, it's, it's a thing. You know? You know? [LAUGH] [LAUGH] I, Its kind of a big investment for me. I, Its kind of a big investment for me. You know? You know? Right. Right. So I got to be really careful. So I got to be really careful. Well you'll save up for 2016 maybe. Well you'll save up for 2016 maybe. That's true. That's true. Yeah! Yeah! I'll save up for, for 2016. I'll save up for, for 2016. [LAUGH] Well this has been great man. [LAUGH] Well this has been great man. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for being here, I want everyone to stop what they're doing, and follow Jaymin on Twitter @jayminwar. Thanks for being here, I want everyone to stop what they're doing, and follow Jaymin on Twitter @jayminwar. Check out til screen daily. Check out til screen daily. Yeah, our conference, take a look at the conference. Yeah, our conference, take a look at the conference. 256. 256. 256 256 Alright make sure you do that. Alright make sure you do that. And you've got to come back, man. And you've got to come back, man. It's been great. It's been great. Hey, happy, happy to be here. Hey, happy, happy to be here. I'll, I'll try to wander in again sometime. I'll, I'll try to wander in again sometime. You won't know when. You won't know when. Alright. Alright. But it will, it will happen. But it will, it will happen. Just bring your sippie cup with you next time. Just bring your sippie cup with you next time. [LAUGH] That's going to do it for us. [LAUGH] That's going to do it for us. Shoot us an email, the404@cnet.com. Shoot us an email, the404@cnet.com. Let us know what you thought of Jeyman. Let us know what you thought of Jeyman. I really liked him, so if you didn't, you're wrong. I really liked him, so if you didn't, you're wrong. We'll be back here tomorrow with a brand new show. We'll be back here tomorrow with a brand new show. Follow us on Facebook, Reddit Twitter and instagram. Follow us on Facebook, Reddit Twitter and instagram. Don't forget the Facebook page is shifted gears, so make sure you go to facewook.com/the404nyc, that is our new permanent Facebook destination. Don't forget the Facebook page is shifted gears, so make sure you go to facewook.com/the404nyc, that is our new permanent Facebook destination. Also, I wanna chat about this real quick before we got to go, our iTunes sort of situation is a little screwed up with the new CNET.com, that's getting all fixed. Also, I wanna chat about this real quick before we got to go, our iTunes sort of situation is a little screwed up with the new CNET.com, that's getting all fixed. So I don't really have a date for these people, but it's gonna get fixed and we're working on it 24/7 so, sorry for any inconvenience. So I don't really have a date for these people, but it's gonna get fixed and we're working on it 24/7 so, sorry for any inconvenience. Just bear with us while we're under construction. Just bear with us while we're under construction. We need one of those like, rotating like, construction GIFs. We need one of those like, rotating like, construction GIFs. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah? Yeah? Do they make those in real life? Do they make those in real life? I feel like they might. I feel like they might. If we do, we'll just get some cones and flashing lights. If we do, we'll just get some cones and flashing lights. We'll be all set. We'll be all set. Yeah, big construction tape. Yeah, big construction tape. I would love that. I would love that. But what else would we need construction tape. But what else would we need construction tape. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Thanks again, Jamin. Thanks again, Jamin. It was great meeting you, man. It was great meeting you, man. No worries. No worries. Alright, that's gonna do it for us. Alright, that's gonna do it for us. I'm Jeff Bakalar. I'm Jeff Bakalar. This has been The 404 Show. This has been The 404 Show. High tech, low brow. High tech, low brow. I'll see you guys tomorrow. I'll see you guys tomorrow. [MUSIC]. [MUSIC].