The 404: Ep. 1402: Where we explore the 'Deep Web' with Alex Winter
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The 404: Ep. 1402: Where we explore the 'Deep Web' with Alex Winter52:51 /
Last time we interviewed Alex Winter, he had just finished a documentary about Napster called "Downloaded." He's back again with a new movie called "Deep Web: The Untold Story of Bitcoin and The Silk Road."
It's Friday December 13 2013. This is the 40 for -- on CNET I'm -- back a while I'm Justin new welcome to the program ladies and gentlemen let's get right to it was super -- back on the program starts went around anglers out into their fancy new digs in notepad or are you impressed and I'm very impressed yeah I'm waiting for Sally -- become the number -- asked me about my child. And the live studio audience and I don't -- thank god that isn't here again it's -- work in project gated -- that -- -- -- next time by the next movie -- -- are obviously everyone knows Alex from. The bill and -- movies playing bill -- love those mean and you know that every time you thank you sir. Palm put more recently you've been behind the camera and you put together a documentary this year called downloaded which. Was my favorite doc in the year 2800%. Thank you continue to show as many people as I can this film because it is -- awesome especially for our generation from having grown up through that experience. It's pretty kick ass and now you're back to back with a brand new film a brand new kick -- campaign and a brand new documentary. Called deep web. The untold story of bitcoin and the silk road. I mean this is just line up pretty perfectly when I first heard that you were -- -- of course he's doing -- that absolutely should be doing is. There's nobody knew anything about what really happened with Napster right nobody knows really anything about bitcoin. Deep web silk wrote all that sort of stuff yeah so. We had an all come together -- well part. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- And that's happened with pretty much every major crossroads and technology. And we Napster or even at the time it was happening. Anniversary this if anyone and that and the like -- -- two. Everybody's focused on file sharing -- not a file sharing about global community he was like absolutely is again I said I used music is people like music there was a way to get them to come to the -- here but really why that was a a revolutionary technology. Was we never had a hundred million people online at the same time before that was the very first time we ever had many people online for -- standings vision so. You note for me I'm just -- interest did end. You know this kind of massive. Seismic shift going on global culture right now and you know bitcoin is a peer to peer technology it is in many ways not unlike Napster. So this is really the next giants'. Big turning point I feel like in the digital revolution. And so it's sort of a continuing conversation for me from downloaded it's just. The stakes are getting a little higher yet -- and when you say higher I mean it this sort of -- is hitting right at the perfect time just as. You know now bitcoin is almost becoming sort of like a household name people understand it from mainstream media has seen that shiny object element to that sort of thing with the -- digital currency money going around yeah so. You know and and also even silk -- about all the recent sort of a revelations that have come out about that but I want to talk about big calling first moon and partially and selfishly I I -- really hear you're. Kind of crash course 101 about what the hell bitcoin is IE I understand it only so far from a lot of our listeners we talk about this all the time before -- financial analysts on the show talking about it I want to hear from you you're doing the research you're in production -- what the hell is that what is the -- where does that come from hunter like money in a vault somewhere that represented the -- had -- it'll look at how it works a. I'm not gonna give you there's really really great now we've -- -- it is really -- if you you'd go to YouTube and Google what. The hell is it -- it'll like walk -- through. And so this in the head down and more people hyper technical structure basically you know we live in the -- -- movies about that in Europe photography. On you know the Internet and cell -- sort of are protected round -- topography and it's taken awhile to actually enter lives in a fundamental way -- and when I see the shiny object about the deep web. On and the dark -- Is that what's happening in the in the media just like we -- like Everett piracy it's Freeman and a song it's like that was shiny object and over here uses. Quietly there was hundreds of millions of people creating an appraisal of more important and pulling -- Madonna -- track library. What's happening is that it was -- oh you know they're selling drugs online and people using this point. In the slate now. -- that -- they are just like they're using. US currency to buy. People use various forms of exchange to purchase drugs is a known it's been happening got a little -- for a little -- that just -- -- -- drugs on line. For a little -- just a little -- like you know since it first show. But well -- before the web -- I mean it's pretty much now I'm someone should take credit for that rule where it's like this the first two things that will happen drugs and pork import is is an accepted fact -- -- the foundation of the Internet has been since you know the moment that it was wrestled away from the military -- universities like. What you should have that the port corporation. Whatever that is we talked back and it's okay so this notion that -- as well. This nefarious. Saying that allows you to go and buy drugs is so completely ludicrous it's it's laughable we will -- that -- -- quickly in -- -- What you have is. You know is a crypto currency and what that means in a nutshell is that is that it was created is an open source peer to peer technology. It's created to them. Q -- -- wouldn't expect when work. Is that how do you create an exchange of cyber exchange that doesn't allow or repeat spending you know the ones you spend -- bitcoin. You can't say okay. Same here -- -- -- -- and you're never -- now and that's -- cryptography comes in which is usually do two factor system or some way of creating a bounce back a private key a public key. You can Google all this stuff it's really. Basic what you get your arms around here. You know -- when it created by minors it's open source. There's a cap on how many they're going to create an Apple and round when -- forties thing probably. I think it's 21. Is that right on point one million -- wants to have yet Apple Y 21 million dollars the most. Confused randomly -- out why and then it sort of goes down the amount of blocks they can be discovered go to down in the reward for people but do you mind -- -- -- goes down every what. -- -- well the thing is there's there's a lot of economic theories around whether that's going to be better -- worse for valuation -- -- my understanding ubiquitous it will actually be better for valuation but again -- -- I currently -- -- crap -- -- people yes you can you can -- -- info. That's a really good starting place you can research so there's so much easy information on -- within the last couple weeks even you know we started working on this vehicle while ago. I'm kind of amazed it's like I'm gonna have to do with us explaining. Everywhere it is it's the beginning there First Act is like now yeah yeah focus on interest entertaining stuff that you didn't want to send -- -- I don't have -- -- -- more oh happy day. Sew up the bottom line is that. There are a lot of people just like it it would Napster dismissing bitcoin as -- had as a Ponzi scheme. It's really. Mistake -- crypto currency is not going anywhere. You know now could be it could be an issue is you can Napster's in the FaceBook is gonna be -- -- gonna be -- pointers any one of the other major. You know crypto currency that are on the rise is more than one. On that point is just the most well known them happens do you where I placed my money but that it -- could be actually could have been -- be government that I -- How like a it's a volatile market but it goes up empty or email an election I investor like if you don't mind losing all your money absolutely. Day and -- talk every almost every -- about that points crashing but I think that's most instinct part about the currency that is that it's totally dependent. On things like what we're doing right now yeah -- is like talking about it and it's. Ending you know if you if it's just hoarded and speculated upon and grabbed by hedge fund is going to die -- -- the more you use it and there are more uses every day right for -- you can use -- to -- hamburgers T -- -- use it. If you wanna donated equipment you can use the caller were accepting money -- the irony yes yes so wat. I mean it's usable I mean and there are more people using it all the time -- you know the idea being able to. And here's the other met on a -- about bitcoin is is that it's it's anonymous. Yes it's an honest to the degree that you know and there are raised -- -- -- -- right in the project protected but it is more track of bull than regular currency. The block -- again -- But the -- chain is keeping a very specific. Record of -- on what has been put in what has been taken is that there retractable actually I would say it's reform or trance. System of exchange. Then regular federally back. So that's another sort of misunderstanding. Seems to have his cloak Iran yeah -- which is what it used to demonize on the reality of it is just as it grows as it's used for for more and more more legitimate uses. It will become more and more transplants as -- architecture built into it to become very -- Which is very useful worry me digital currencies so. You know for me it's like there's -- -- -- -- uses for it. On -- neither party being used like you know in countries that have devalued economies you can use it actually exist that's pretty great -- you know you can use it very easily you buy things online and in the physical world there copy shops and one I think in -- to expect here on then. What's coming is and what is one of its greatest use is I think is for micro transactions. Because the Internet right now is kind of us a -- in terms of like. You know what it's free what costs money -- it costs money do you and you know if you tip somebody something had -- -- just figures by box like got a cap. -- is fantastic for that fraction of decline. You know I do read it like it didn't opinion if you -- when they -- and the Internet I can tip back it's like it's transactional. If you think about the actual. Potential of micro transactions. -- game changer right in a lot of ways for for an -- for an economy so. I think that you know again sort of circle back and it would just uses of that as an -- -- is not understanding. Sort of where the world is its. But to me it's that seems sort of -- scene -- things begin like regular physical media that we sort of cherished you know decades ago. Became digital right and how there was like that sort of friction there and that hesitant to adapt to that was still there she's just -- please -- there but I think we've made. Big leaps and strides in in the graphite I think that -- mentality can be applied to currency them and have now you know. Sure paper money is is is -- less popular sort of thing but that visualization of that is just to me a natural evolution of. Where you know I totally agree it's a natural evolution of we're going culturally it's a natural of the evolution of the technology and -- once once this technology began its it is evolutionary by nature and that's the -- Stumbling point I think for a lot of people is they either he -- -- which the world wouldn't change which is fair enough but it happens again. Com or they demonize bright and I think that those are all kind of errors because the best thing -- and sort of like this is the gavel pounding on downloaded the -- we can possibly do for future is except. Where we are right and work on innovation and progress together. On that's the best possible outcome and that I think -- we've downloaded. You know -- I still bump -- -- people who turn. Misunderstood. They're like this this is not a good revolution is a bad revolution you know our artists are getting screwed -- a lot like -- that is -- by the revolution. By the technology they're getting screwed by a the mechanisms that are getting put in place. On -- that are gonna hurt the artist in many -- the way the artist is being hurt and previous systems. I'm so. I think frankly that the more when dives in and start working on building architecture the better chance everyone has of that -- rosier future and not something has kind of -- -- Absolutely I mean -- -- there are futile to sort of adapt it is you know sort of a death sentence it is Annan's. You know -- feeling that's the biggest sort of stick in the mode for people who who demonize this sort of thing whether it's because and whether it's you know digital music so -- that. Going real quick back to like understanding be calling the question I get all the time from Eric was. I guess I'm just the guy in my family when you know like less than happy should know what that I don't back to exactly -- how your computer -- to this effort compares the job. That the question I get and ask all the time that I don't really have an answer to is where is the money. Mike is it represented in gold or silver or in some guy's jacket since that point that right but I like to -- like that is the most. Difficult sort of concept for people to wrap their heads around. What happens is that however you have bought -- that point and you have to by hand with currency -- with -- -- does at one point originating in some form -- -- You have or or exchange he -- -- this -- to let's say that you -- -- with someone -- like I'm going to. Write this paper for you. And you're gonna get me half of a -- So we could reject it could materialize without being backed by any currency underneath -- and you could -- you can build yourself pulpit -- that way she. On but the point is is that once you have you know the your wallet -- -- you actually have -- assigned bitcoin address and you can have multiple addresses. -- that wallet will accrue bitcoin whether your buying into it exchanging it -- or whatever. And those -- -- are literally they're not as you know they're not physical people are making their crimes because it's cool that sort fascist restaurant people who buy vinyl no offense. It's you know if it's that -- cystic it has nothing do with the reality what they're -- it which is it is just code you know but it's very very. Finite code is backed by Krypton graffiti and just like PGP works and just like on even -- Two factor verification works on Google your phone or whatever. On a public key and private key it's locked that little piece of the -- is locked. I'm so can't be hacked possibly is really hard right. You know where we are in the world in terms of cryptography which is what has got everyone freaked out from the average user to the NSA to the -- you know two you know banks or whatever. Is on these systems whether you know -- it's PGP where there's Tor. Bitcoin. These systems of photography are extremely sophisticated yet and very very hard to dismantle. And -- -- just meant double sure just like robbing a bank is is possible or are always be ways of of once there's money involved there will be many many people in China trying to undo it on the you're dealing with very sophisticated -- level photography. Real quickly and hold on that that I want -- widgets at the thing that I and correct me if I'm wrong -- maybe I've just been misleading every single person that sort of ask me about it. The the way that I was sort of able to explain to people where they may be got a little bit of understanding was that. Imagine the Internet was home to like this element that we -- that we found and there's it's only exists on the Internet. Basically like there's the gold of the Internet -- -- it can be mined and it can be sort of like shaved off and everyone gets but it's fine. -- said says is that is that sort of a. I think that's about right I think that you know you can even just say it's PayPal without being tighter credit card right museum simpler -- just like is literally. You know it is you have a ledger. That side is connected to a certain form of of exchange able currency like people say it's not currency that. You know for it's your head would mean explode and get that I don't get that anti about -- -- it is currency and exchanging it -- tied to money out currencies so. You know you have a ledger that has you have this amount of currency. But it's cyber based currency which means you can either barter exchange -- but it's it's in a ledger that. Locked and that's -- and that -- statement. -- -- -- a lot of people just don't. Can't grasp the idea of something intangible like that because -- -- protected by -- brain. And it's ironic because a lot of times the downfall of people's did -- collections. Is their own hard drives and and that's the scary part of that or not intently but things like that FDIC for -- -- -- you know if if your hard drive fails some like that is that still the case where you won't be able to recover. No because you have intermediaries -- that you don't have your bitcoin and drive anymore you have it through new media or whoever that -- you know you're watching calling -- like you know whoever. You're working -- for whoever your wallet is right. And you have you know it's you just have a ledger with a number it's like having an online bank account. On -- -- -- -- look at how. Into your account and just suck out all your money they could do that on your bank account. You know there's going to be there -- levels of fraud that your order will accrue in this area just like there aren't -- but as you know what went. You know my final little amusing about about the the fear on bitcoin is like. Ask your average e-book highly educated person to explain money to you yeah they can't now -- no way that's gonna point you know it's it's it's this stuff this -- that's a reason economists you know it's like weatherman yeah you know it's like he has some really Smart economists will will watch over and get a down turning economy is -- and -- I don't know -- -- -- you know if money would mean it was easier to understand. It's sort of like you know make it movies if there was a formula to make it hit movies it would only be hit -- Yeah and I'm not the biggest question a -- point is what is bitcoin -- and that's. It is difficult question to -- he goes up and it goes up and -- stable for me it was like oh China's you know blue and -- crashed. It went down for like an hour him right back to work right so it's you know it's been fairly stable for a little while -- -- are completely crashes or not. Like the stop the stock market I mean I think you have to be prepared for the volatility. Is going to be volatile -- use the early look at gold -- early days of a new. Currency yet. So crazy yet it's today we can go offered is also on the outer space I think a lot of -- I am fascinated by is the queen mining to and we talked about the community aspect of it at every part of -- is. Sort of based in this idea of crowd sourced -- -- open source and so. Bitcoin mining and the use that you applicable pick points have you tried the bitcoin mining thing because this is a way that you can -- get the currency. Not for free but without exchanging your own dollars. I'm not yet here I mean like -- and anyone that yeah I -- I'm not sure absolutely there's a bunch of people that are in our movie that -- that through architects -- another image that -- that -- -- I got a whole computer lab right in the back and underground yes. And they got they got the hardware that they needed and you know they need you know a lot and got calls from various government people just making sure that they were -- -- Not in -- Walter White granular somewhere that. Side on a you know it's really fascinating and the other thing you know but declined. To go about it is just like if you do you want a researcher. Is because it's an open source technology there's more to it than just east. Like it's in people are building on top of the -- technology because it's open source so there's a lot of cool stuff -- -- be coming down the -- Built around the technology that's what's so awesome about open source computer or technology that again was -- -- was exciting about Napster was that. You just you kind of like take this thing you build more and you turn it into something else and so I think wherever it goes is really gonna be fascinating -- very cool. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- On the we're talking of the conspiracy theory yeah we're talking to the chief architects of like a lot of secret areas of the current time for argument that go back into the sixties you know. But when you're you're dealing with you know as you guys -- -- Hackers. You know disease a respectful term there is a hacker community goes back many many decades now. There -- a lot of very brilliant people who are part of the hacking community -- cryptography can mean girls. Photography community. -- communities that are really higher food chain. -- -- What do I do not believe we do not believe that bitcoin -- -- -- -- inextricably connected to. An online drugs selling market bread just to get to answer -- you know. Andy -- you know drug selling markets of god. Is to bump into them on the BB BBS -- in the very early nineties. And they look pretty much even though the web didn't exist yet you look pretty much the same -- -- have shiny graphics. -- does this and how silly it was the same people like it's kind of from me. Nothing ever say never on but if I were to go -- and I have a feeling that my reaction via through. It's like there's -- community is that community you know there -- people who -- -- you know who really care enough about. You know coding and -- read they want to use their coding skills to purchase drugs it's amazing that -- -- able to be so productive though isn't. I think I I actually wonder like I would on Wednesday time actually wonder how big community actually go -- -- healing. It's not as big as everybody's -- -- you know there's always some people who really wanna like -- the a -- browser -- To try to buy some -- -- -- -- -- things like -- failure with I think it's like you know the -- -- now isolated all of the Asperger's drug -- We now know where they hello resigned -- -- too much on -- definitely. A cut the data got a -- administrator I have. Yeah -- worked successfully take. You know so anyway I you know I think -- I doubt that's working yeah dad died on the reception -- that the coaches this evil guy in alone it'll man propagated by the media exit. -- -- right and that's really where a lot of the misinformation sort of being just like Napster apps that are bad guys they're evil you know they're gonna Bergen ST -- -- -- computer. Your stuff and what happens except it takes a documentary like clear all the -- about every I don't -- an intent separate truth and it does the idea but also -- -- Steve Jobs has come on our -- -- Republicans object billions of dollars yeah I have only other player videos via. You know. When I was thinking when I first heard that you were doing this demos like right. Nice this is what he should be doing great job and then I thought okay. -- there's got to be a baked in sort of conflict. In doing a documentary. Which which involved -- finding people getting people to talk to you about something that takes. Such effort and has so much pride in being anonymous. So how do -- will like what kind of sort of paradox -- did you have to deal with there doing it -- about things that are really. Not supposed to have. You know of a bread crumb trail to where they rent originate from or some of the people in the movie are speaking anonymously share -- some of them have -- for legal reasons you know. -- but frankly you know. Another sort of thing to dispel is is that the deep web. The first here's the people -- just is really almost just a clinical term that refers to everything that's an -- the -- -- is not the dark deep web is literally a lot of it is just. Is just administrative code is just not -- has been. -- -- On which means you can't search Google exactly which means that basically the its studio sort of like the equivalent of dark matter -- space -- see it but it accounts for pretty much everything -- another dimension you guys have found its foundation through the foundation. And -- tedious and interest -- But what what happened was script markers and and and other people got into -- they started using that. Architecture. To travel around him and -- with the advent of tour you know the onion router the on. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- But privately. Are utilizing that area of the web. -- -- a tiny sliver of the -- but -- accounts for you know government going back and forth with important information. Is in it. Involves journalists. Who want to be able to get stories back and forth and being picked on by anybody. Dissidents in foreign countries who were trying to communicate each other without authority -- regime. Mean mostly really important valid legitimate uses -- You know even like there like a lot of sort of recovery. On -- like raid recovery people like that immediately communicate online. On the web and not be public. And then -- -- markets are people selling drugs yes there's child porn there's really horrible things going on there to that. You know the the feds are actively trying to use to on. You know -- out there mom so. My point is that a lot of people that commuting on the on dark -- I'm mark perfectly happy to talk to us because they're not -- they're just there it's a tool. For people get confused it's like it's not. There's an. But but largely of people like yes we were actually prevent it people about this is actually important rate that the average citizen understands. That there's a way to use the web privately that they don't want that the people who are sort of like. Treating it like fight club -- -- really inane talk about the interview. But went over that -- -- -- I mean that. In my opinion those are sort of like you know -- the sort of like. The fringe dwelling on it but geeks who have kind of apologize this. It turned it into something and it's obviously you know whatever it's like I'm walking around with with you know the -- Media vendetta mask and you know that he hadn't had that. You know but the reality of it is is and it and I'm sure this even goes for anonymous is like you know most of the people who who are using it as a legitimate network for a dissident communication journalists or whoever. They are actively trying to get people to note that this thing exists use it. The whole argument that like if you talk about the government's gonna shut downs like. Hate to break it to you -- really do but you know the government is well aware. Of Darknet and they have been since before it existed ever and in fact government created the architecture that built it in the first place. I'm sorry you know so if you're using it in -- order to like you know do something really nefarious. You are going to get caught because basically you know the system is it is. Was devised by the government. On and in fact you know -- -- look at -- -- regaining some into the movie. It was the government needed to release -- around the world -- for it to work great. So on so for me what I'm most interested in with with the deep -- -- -- -- interest and waited -- witches. This giant global community that is growing all the time not -- in my view the various -- handful of people using it to buy wheat but like you're really using it for amazing things that who want privacy and want anonymity or just. To be able to send something without being in hinged upon. That's a pretty amazing thing and that's growing that's marketing smaller -- -- more sophisticated cryptography gas which is anymore to just -- -- time. The more robust community is going to be. That to me from a global culture standpoint is it game changer here I think I asked my shiny object went -- -- -- -- Russell road and -- guys you know. Navigating toward -- either drugs they're missing this huge community over here that's growing and growing and that's really what's gonna change things right. You think you know with that sort of revelation comes a lot of built in challenges though right I mean. You know the same way in the in in the Internet the way we sort of perceive it in its infancy had all of these issues with piracy in one and obviously those still exist. But when you you know the sort of stigma that. The deep -- -- How do you. Rationalize to someone that doesn't see these ultimately beneficial things about it how do you explain to them like well this is still very important and we still need to take care you make a movie I. An end and -- -- write an editor and that's and it's sort of designed to like shed light on why this is so exactly -- The porn movies in the shed light on the deep breath -- magazine did pretty good job that frontpage -- cover of their magazine com. The -- -- the point of the movie is to contextualize -- what's going -- so that people can understand -- you know that's the whole reason that we're doing it and you know the team that we have that's involved in the new V. On this movie are all people who are sort of embedded in digital the digital world and and moving forward into into these these -- to arrange it doesn't mean -- were -- like super gung ho drink the Kool -- every right now rat. If it's -- hey dad it's like this is the world reliving -- coastal -- yeah exactly this is this this these are the times he's the giant. Global changes that are going -- -- happening primarily online. You positive uses for -- is an important story to tell -- because I feel like you know we cover Dick on all the time but most of the stories you hear about. You know things like god we -- with as the assassination market where you can put -- -- -- but like god -- -- in general I suspect that it's a very small amount of people that are engaging with that. Yeah I mean you know and -- pages incredulous doesn't get it right there so like. You know its its its sound scarier than it is and it makes for killer headlines on. You know I don't think I think that you know -- do you think that this the federal the feds have. You know their work cut out -- -- is it's a hard world to navigate if you're in law enforcement. But you know law enforcement. Has. You know the participation in the cooperation of some of the best hacking lines in the world you know most of the really big hackers. You know either before or after they got arrested. You know very sensibly -- know -- and help. -- we don't want. If they can use. These systems to prevent people from getting -- -- I'm all for -- -- a bit like the agreement into the world outlook and -- Kevin specifically you know and it's and I sleep better at night knowing someone like Kevin. Is doing that work. So I think that you know the assassination markets -- so -- stuff. You know -- and so again -- They're selling. Legitimate stuff as well as drugs so it's like that the law enforcement challenge I think. On is going to be how do we sort like what happened -- dot com and upload. You know how do we not. You know and we got by on the entire ecosystem. Just to catch a couple bad guys this question about these these communities times like. They're like a whole city. You know in New York City. Most of New York City is just rumbling on Saturday there may be. Hit man who lives here. You know and maybe somebody selling you know you know murderous here and right here it's gonna kill nine people a night. You do want to do something about those two people knew looking the entire city is not the answer -- -- and so I think that where law enforcement challenge. Which side you know empathize with is is how do we get in. And not through the media about his like with we've -- it happens like. Lots of stuff. Didn't matter whether was. You know legitimate or illegitimate it was all gone -- that's a problem you now and I think that'll be an issue for them as far as the black markets but. You know for me this there are just much bigger and they're much bigger implications globally with darkness there's -- You know you talked a little bit about how you know revolutionary -- it really is I wanna see if you can like. Book peer into the future 1520 years from now when maybe perhaps a lot of this dust is settled. What do you what do you see being the sort of norm I feel like the Internet has gone through revelations this is something we're on the precipice of something mass. Yet we -- in something. That's interesting is that. This massive thing started -- -- a time when it built infrastructure but once Napster that. And it was really evident that you could basically open source massive global community rightly. He's -- -- -- teenagers basically created a massive blow the change the world. Now once you add you know an economic structure -- -- that like that's what we've -- -- or crypto currency yet. I mean the and it's open source that you can build on that technology I mean that the potentials are -- limitless for what you can do. On. That tied to use something like -- -- the cryptography of the -- I'm you have these -- communities -- from -- -- -- -- exchange online here. You know what what's happening now is that. You know the the scariest. Thing that people -- Napster was is not even the tip of the iceberg the idea that you could have. A global community direct exchange I'm an artist and AA and make -- On whatever goods and services you -- I can now sell those in mind my own totally. Independent ecosystem. I mean really -- we are. You know still the infancy of the beginning of a of a massive global community. But that the columns. Has -- -- the capability to become legitimate community. Almost a sovereign immunity. You know what -- countries mean what -- borders mean. You know we're getting into like -- and of course I think that one of the reasons that some people are trying to demonize uses or just like seeing where this is going and going. We have to stop this. You can't yet in the east they see -- almost like a matrix he's sort of singularity. Where it's. You know threatening it's an evolution that can't be stopped and and it it really has. You know and I think -- again it's it's not something to fear you sort of accepted. And and get in on it and help -- On I think -- standing on the side of of this highway in part rocks at cars as they go by is the worst thing you can do happen in the music industry it's still happening I think the people that are still. Out there shaking their fist at these damn kids and technology are just hurting everything -- not helping anything. I think we're having the same seeing the same thing. He year. I think that we have to kind of recognize because you know there was a congressional hearing a bitcoin -- -- they're pretty positive about that I mean a lot of people are going okay. We can't to shut this thing down or -- we -- we sort of like you know embrace it. And I will say. That you know there's no -- -- way to answer questions are too many potentiality is a we'll say that what is driving -- towards faster than probably anybody wants it to happen. Is a more unified. Planet and and I don't mean that any any sort airy fairy utopian because you have like -- hugging -- -- will still trying to find ways to kill which -- you know -- human beings will still be human beings. That's an awful -- Robbie and other exploiting each other killing each other will be doing it right side problem. But you know we the the notion of what's nation states and boundaries mean are absolutely going to change -- -- I mean look at what happened in my mind it would happen in Europe. With the -- that's like -- kind of hazy -- -- version of what's gonna happen -- a much bigger scale in terms of like. All of these walls coming right very cool. All I want -- more specifically about the film -- you you alluded a little bit before of who's involved in this. What is -- what is like the sort of you know people behind the camera what's what's that comes. What's -- team well what happened was this -- -- I had this amazing team and talented and and there are people that wanted to work with and I guy named mark Schiller who about. As a company called -- and really on. Instrumental in the digital space there's a lot of people in the digital. Energy -- -- -- industry. Are so full of crap -- Hamachi had. And you know it's like and they just talking -- -- buzzwords they get you nothing and it's just it's laughable and there are a lot of people making money right now. I'm but you know someone like mark actually get stuff -- -- like the marketing mind behind us and and exit the gift shop and some -- and some bigger -- -- -- -- consummate art background so the so that I headed up -- immediately restart teamed up on download and use instrument instrumental in helping me begin to build a community around. On and for me -- -- so there's a hundred times the the Internet this is. When I managed in the Internet and ladies and the reason I did was that was really evident to me it was about community. I didn't know the level the speed at which then we're gonna change. When Napster was such -- like. Okay now really changing. On but it's about community first four Stan and even decliners about community -- now part of it part of you know -- community and so I wanted to create a community around this movie was really really important that's why we didn't kick starter because we've program isn't paper document -- news I've ever want to know that Nat in this paper important stuff -- -- movie NA it will go -- -- -- exactly so on the so -- -- I actually came to me. On and say you know this dialogue we downloaded is great -- you keep it going like that we sort of just roll right into the next big discussions here. On -- so we teamed up on immediately and and then I brought in a produced in England zipper. -- produced a lot of huge music docs and love on as well as the undefeated which won Oscars for stock at 2012 and we've just built this really great team on the people -- -- really great movies and also understood the digital landscape. At its root. Mom and our strategy has been you know to drop their arms around the most important people in the story same strategies on talented. Everybody had -- opinion Napster you know every -- and every -- every political person but very few people actually understood when Napster was with -- -- it. Or -- it right it's not only was interest in hearing people who knew we're gonna have something to say -- meant to. I -- one here like in some -- -- -- it's doctor it was also right now. And we're -- the same thing with this -- we have we have on our team in terms of the subjects we have like. You know the people that broke all of these stories originally. -- people who are most embedded in the deep way and in -- -- and in the black markets. You know I've gone back to the originators of the sort of BBS -- and black market community which is an interest in community and where a lot of stuff started and there's a lot sort of a people's egos there. And that I think is important part of the story to tell. All the people who who created the cryptography movement -- now basically is the Internet. Column and -- -- used for all that so we're really trying to tell play a comprehensive but not exhaustive. -- you know examination of like. Who built it how -- -- get here -- the key players today where we go -- the best of our cities. So during your production and film is in production Rio we're shooting bomb. So far since you know you you sort of started what has been the one thing that you maybe learn right away that was. Possibly the shocking -- like look at home. My mind is changed on that or I now know something I did. You know unlike Napster are kind of had an opinion and it didn't really change and I think the most -- and Napster was more. Excuse me from the record industry's I'd like to estimate the political mechanics of why they couldn't respond -- that are in their sort of like -- -- -- well yeah I just. And also just the fact that they were as big multi headed -- had a very difficult time agreeing -- dealing with with with -- corporations obvious. Once you get it -- your -- but it wasn't at the time at the -- -- as much of a disservice to I think the record -- that -- Napster not communicate that are. On at in this case is totally different. I learn everything I think -- -- every day yet everything I think I know is constantly changing. On the only thing that I know for sure how we got grade like I know the history of -- -- it's. Amazing. You know the handful of people this handful like. I mean it's attach them again and everybody's out there like China I mean I don't do producer editor out there option in the so -- let me actually the rugs or parent you know I can't believe I mean this is the coolest stuff from the -- And NASA sort of stuff like focused on that I no that's -- night on. And then as far as bitcoin goes I've learned a lot about sort of what blew my mind like I understood it was a crypto currency understood. That it had. Potentiality that -- positive way more than the ones that idea was from the -- a more suspicious of anything -- getting demonized in technology it's usually wrong. On and if -- if there there is something that there's usually not what people are saying something else on so. What I didn't understand a pick one which has been awesome it is is because of its open source nature. I'm learning to deal a lot of people who were -- -- deep in the architecture -- what the room for growth is with it in now it's gonna be used not even just for currency. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- whole other -- -- frankly on and there are going to be much use of you know this technology that are really gonna blow people's minds that's really cool. On the on the other thing was just I think. It was fascinating to me is there's everything is so black and white and and in Napster it it Bosnia is a -- really kept people from understanding. How great this global community was. In here I think the implications are bigger I think that to say I buy on either for. Like the feds -- or -- for like the revolution. I think is is inaccurate and -- I think that that the reality of it is were all kind in this thing together. I think that that the people who -- trying to find their way forward. I think the federal government is trying to find its way for I think -- charter how to best use these technologies. Keep people -- a lot of mistakes are giving me a lot of people don't understand what they're doing there and they're just fumbling around hit the switch to external list currently let me actually. -- out. But I think that that there is it is important that we gap that's why I lap when I get these sort of like. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- You know most of it's really positive we do need to have you know. Some restrictions -- -- wanna make the deepening public -- to breakdown of photography not had people I feel the opposite. Which -- privacy we should you know. This is -- metaphor constantly use them when people see that in the privacy is an issues like. -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- Or whatever is gonna happen to you and asking is just like you get when credit cry -- a credit card fraud doesn't work you know and they call you and they go oh. We just froze everything you have nobody happy -- it's not your fault but we gotta work it out and -- could -- -- -- to. And oil whatever -- -- -- -- -- -- analyze. It is you know at any whatever they don't digital error he is an -- -- -- I mean there's so you should care about your privacy so I think it that we want to move forward in a world where we privacy. And we're stay right and I think it electric what -- looking at is like. Where we strike that house what is -- house who were the people involved what's actually. Like most just like Santa existing. A lot of people in. The privacy journalist dissidents all those people. The very same people. Who are over here working with the -- in the government there there but with so many experts in this world that working for everybody. Right so there isn't so much like the -- -- -- -- and is buried. You know if you follow his it is -- or whatever and just Twitter. Written he's not just like a government -- share some very radical -- does and you know but he's also helping me feature which. I think that's that's the kind of person that's the right weight for the sort of ecosystem. Excellence. On all -- we'll have a few more minutes of wanna talk about the kicks our campaign I want every one of listening obviously you can be a part of this fantastic community. And -- experience that's sort of revolving around it on there's a lot of cool perks. Figured. You wanna go over some of the stuff here yeah here dangling in front of us get out of there -- serious yeah taking ourselves very seriously slowed her SN you can get -- -- right. I will leave you Skype messages and say pretty much whatever you want the ability I mean it collect my feeling about this is is greatly devised to kick start that was we really wanted -- we wanted to create a community of people who wanted to -- through and be with us. -- this news people -- and joined us. I immediately -- before he had dollar wine. I had like 25 fantastic subjects from -- just it's a way for people find you of course of people coming out of the deep web coming from law enforcement the coming from hacker community. And -- all the -- it's -- -- -- that everyone's like region have -- -- reaching out and you know they can reach -- however they want it can just connect with me out of the GPG here whatever and so we're building a community which is awesome and then. People are mostly -- -- wanted to do -- mostly wanted to to give the movie so people are you know more than that don't have stuff or you know the cool. Whatever prizes or we do you know we're doing screenings -- -- -- screenings you can -- producers like a real producer on the movie for certain amount of money be part of the community from that standpoint. Com but largely people are buying them you know so they're gonna get you know they're not gonna get a baseball happens you know this is whilst. We're gonna actually get the movie we're making -- which I think is you know episode took me like -- like kick starter a lot on and I like crap -- lots of feel like it's it's. Communities and artist is the most important -- making. These things for -- and actually do you believe especially with the doc. That getting feedback from people that -- -- people go I'll actually kind years sorted saying that's wrong when you like and changed the kick start. Ups are you know I wanna have my act together as much as I know about this material. I can't -- too -- so the more people come -- and tell me what's going on and the more -- participate great. So kick starter for me like it -- mostly about community mostly about about reaching out to people. The money sure we're using we're using -- for shoes for shooting -- where it'll go right into the -- of the film. On -- site to be able to do screenings and people from our community can come to and you know if you really always wanted you know our talented production scripts like why not yet you know you can mountainside house and -- -- -- whatever but. On again if you look at our dashboard were mostly were mostly gotten people -- Right and you know there's something very special about being able to tap into that. As the dean dean message the monitor of the film is that very idea and to have it -- you know sort of exist cancer uses a -- -- yet. Does -- also I mean I really like accessibility. You know that I control like ever look at that every citizen has a right to how much they are not accessible to issue I have when I was in front of the camera when I was younger it was like I did not like how little anonymity and I wanted to be able to control as one of the reasons that I really. To put the kibosh on that side of my career for a long time. And I don't like being in the public eye but I -- it has to with the parameters and I think that. That on it gave me -- very personal sort of experience with privacy law -- and on and again it's like I'm. I'm a regular guy take the subway like you know being out amongst human being yeah you know I'm not I don't -- behind you know an ivory tower -- But I do you like having you know some say like every person should have. Over how much or how little I want to be exposed and so for me. Like we kick starter in these communities they allow me to like be completely fluid you know if you connect it to me through Twitter I will. Twitter you back or we will start emailing each other -- we will. Messages that -- that you kick starter. That float communication I think is very powerful -- well best of luck if you actually endeavored to you have sort of like via a date floating around -- what to release them -- it's hard to say we're gonna be probably be done shooting within the next couple months -- -- and that would just cranking away on editorial so. And the normally it's festivals and things like that firstly we -- it was almost a year -- but it won't be we wanna get this out there. To so we can answer the question what the hell is that -- library bomb but it's. You know some -- after the -- probably excellent -- I will again that's a -- thanks -- come back those -- now it's great now I'll -- you very -- for -- also -- excellent right that's gonna do -- -- 86644. -- -- -- -- call again go check -- -- kick starter page who posted in the show notes. At cnet.com. Slash the 404. Head on over and you know contribute to the fund it would be awesome. That will do it for us were back here Monday until then have a fantastic weekend I'm Jeff Bakalar and Justin Yu and this has been the 404 show high tech low brow. Big thanks again to Alex winter thank you see geysers you.