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What a bunch of crap. . .

by Coryphaeus / May 17, 2008 11:53 PM PDT

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - An American soldier has been disciplined and ordered from Iraq, the U.S. military said on Sunday, for using a copy of the Koran for target practice at a shooting range near Baghdad.


I am so tired of having to treat "them" with kid gloves and walk on egg shells around "them". Would this same type of flap be news and be reported if "they" shot holes in the Bible? Nope.

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Some folks
by bob b / May 18, 2008 2:11 AM PDT

Consider their faith to be fact.
Why?...beyond me.
This happens in countries all around the world.
If you have to deal with these people it is best not to poke at their faith.
Since their faith is fact they have no tolerance for this.

This GI knew or should have known this.
This sort of activity is VERBOTEN.

If someone wanted to use the bible for target practice it would not effect me at all.

But I can separate FAITH and FACT.

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I agree.
by Angeline Booher / May 18, 2008 3:34 AM PDT
In reply to: Some folks

He knew better.

IMO, another case of battle stress overcoming good sense. I suspect too many tours extended too often too close together.

Speakeasy Moderator

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I think his marksmanship was a bit off
by Steven Haninger / May 18, 2008 3:29 AM PDT

I also suspect he'd receive some sort of disciplinary action if he'd chosen a Bible as his target. The UCMJ isn't about being democratic and tolerant. It's about maintaining rigid standards designed to serve a specific purpose and all must comply for the mission to be successful. As well, we're trying to gain the respect of a people who mostly cherish the Koran. Some go quite a bit overboard by our standards but this is not a reason to respond with taunts. One could well say of this solder that he could have tipped a few Iraqi citizens who were fence leaners in the direction of the terrorist organizations. The mission of our military is to remove those who would do harm and not create more of them. In order to gain the confidence of the average Iraqi citizen who may have been taught that the US is a bunch of evil doers is to display otherwise while we are in their presence. We need to prove that any such lessons they received were in error....and we need to set an example that makes them want to be more like us. Gunning down their holy book was, IMO, not the way to accomplish anything of lasting good.

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by Coryphaeus / May 18, 2008 6:54 AM PDT

All well and good not to Pi** them off. But whose religion is more important? We do not want to Pi** them off for what VALID reason?

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Whose religion is more important to WHO
by Josh K / May 18, 2008 7:08 AM PDT
In reply to: But!!!

I think it's reasonable to say that their religion is more important to them, just as your religion is more important to you. Would you like it if someone shot up a Bible? Of course you wouldn't. Neither would I and I'm not a religious person.

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The Nazi's had a belief system
by James Denison / May 18, 2008 10:56 AM PDT

Should we have left it intact? I see the same spirit expressed in the Koran.

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Godwins law Closes Topic
by mementh / May 18, 2008 12:08 PM PDT

Sorry folks but this topic should now be closed due to godwins law being pulled into effect by James Denison

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Godwin's Law
by James Denison / May 18, 2008 1:30 PM PDT

Something dreamed up by Nazi lovers to squelch debate and cut down on derogatory references to that belief system.

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(NT) Godwin wouldn't have lasted a week on SE. :-)
by drpruner / May 19, 2008 7:52 AM PDT
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(NT) Mementh is a Bronze, isn't he ;-)
by Dave Konkel [Moderator] / May 24, 2008 10:14 AM PDT
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yep.. mispelling on original
by mementh / May 24, 2008 10:25 AM PDT

yep your right man. though the name is Mnementh but the way i read it i saw Mementh... call me crazy Sad

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So you believe Islam should be eradicated?
by Josh K / May 20, 2008 3:12 AM PDT

What are we going to do with those billion Muslims (the vast majority of whom are decent, nonviolent people)? Kill them all? Should I tell my Pakistani coworker to start making out his will?

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When those billions of Muslims denounce the ones who
by Kiddpeat / May 20, 2008 3:48 AM PDT

are carrying out Mohammad's instructions to engage in violence we will have taken a huge step forward. They haven't done that yet, and I'm not holding my breath. Kill them? Of course not! Not unless it is an act of self defense, and truly peaceful people will not put us in that position.

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What kind of denunciation....
by Josh K / May 20, 2008 11:22 PM PDT

...would satisfy you? I've read and seen many, many statements from Muslims in which they denounced terrorism and said it was a gross distortion of what their religion is really all about. Maybe you've missed them, or maybe you think all of the world's Muslims are one big organization that can issue press releases or something?

When an act of white-on-black racist violence occurs, do you, as a white person, feel the need to issue a public statement denouncing it? If not, why not?

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Yep...just like "Nazism" should have been eradicated; the...
by Jack Ammann / May 20, 2008 2:55 PM PDT

...vast majority of whom were decent, nonviolent people...so you just go after the radicals. And you get rid of the Koran just like "Mein Kamph" was done away with.

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(NT) This sub-thread is closed !
by Angeline Booher / May 21, 2008 1:52 AM PDT
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VALID reason
by ice_bear_joe / May 19, 2008 1:36 AM PDT
In reply to: But!!!

The usa could not survive without their oil so just be
prepared to keep on kissing butt.

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is there any country
by oldie and goody / May 19, 2008 4:38 AM PDT
In reply to: VALID reason

that can survive without OPEC oil? I suppose you run your vehicle on water?

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is there any country
by ice_bear_joe / May 19, 2008 4:48 AM PDT
In reply to: is there any country

yep 1 dumb country called Canada who ships a lot of their oil
to the usa and buys from opec

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No, not crap at all
by Josh K / May 18, 2008 4:06 AM PDT

If we're going to occupy a country and claim to be trying to make it a better one, we should have the decency to respect the religious beliefs of the citizens of that country. The soldier who did this should be ashamed of himself and the damage an act like this has likely done. I'm glad the army issued a swift and sincere-sounding apology.

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No, not crap at all
by ice_bear_joe / May 18, 2008 4:42 AM PDT
In reply to: No, not crap at all

Very good reply Josh.
Acts like this give the terrorists more recruits.

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(NT) His plan worked.....he's on his way home/out of Iraq.
by JP Bill / May 18, 2008 4:58 AM PDT
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He'll have time to think about it..............
by Mac McMullen / May 18, 2008 6:32 AM PDT

Although I can relate to the thought of the original post, this is
the kind of thought activity that was prevalent at Abu Ghraib.

This individual will be dealt with for "personal conduct not in
the best interest of the military or the USofA".

His immediate superiors should also be dealt with, as I would
place a wager that he announced his intention.

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I care not for Book of Mormon
by James Denison / May 18, 2008 4:59 AM PDT

...but doubt I'd use it for target practice. Then again the Mormons don't hate me far as I know and aren't out trying to kill me at every turn of the road. If so, then I'd probably feel differently. I can commiserate with the Marine for his "piss on you and what makes you this way" reaction. If it wasn't for the Koran, there might could be peace in the Middle East. There is no law or doctrine or religion that pushes hatred of others in today's world, and gives every excuse for wars, than the Koran. To not recognize that and accept it as truth is to be foolish.

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Excellent point!
by Coryphaeus / May 18, 2008 7:04 AM PDT
"If it wasn't for the Koran, there might be peace in the Middle East."

It has been stated that there have been more people killed over religion than any and all other causes combined. I'm sick of hearing about the Koran, Muslims, their "religion", and their feelings. Not saying I'm insensitive, but why give more credence and "respect" to their religion? Just to keep them happy? I'm tired of this. They can deal with it, live with it, or, and maybe I'm in a "mood", get nuked and let God (whichever) sort it out. I'm sick and tired of the eggshells.
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Equal time: Example of Muslim peacemaking:
by drpruner / May 18, 2008 12:49 PM PDT
In reply to: Excellent point!

The Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, supposedly built where Jesus was put to death and buried, is controlled by six "Christian" groups that divide the building and grounds among them. In 2006, Time magazine told of an earlier situation when monks there "brawled for hours, ... clubbing each other with giant cnadlestick holders." So great is their distrust of one another that the key to the church is entrusted to a Muslim. Also, a documentary recently on the same topic (the Church) showed that the argumentum ad baculum has been going on for about 400 years.
The nominal reason for the "zeal" is that some of these groups expect Jesus to return at the spot, and they want to be the first to greet him. (I am not making this up!) Another reason, better known to the Christmastime pilgrims especially, is that each group gets its own fees from visitors.

This information, BTW, is from the very Watchtower we studied today worldwide; the article topic was "Who is wise and understanding among you?" (Jas 3:13) The study covered 3:13-18 verse by verse, and we found much good counsel there that helps us avoid [imperfectly] these problems.

But, of course, our bible is said to be poorly translated; maybe these Jerusalem groups have a better version. Happy

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my take on it.
by mementh / May 18, 2008 7:44 AM PDT

I would say a good majority of the people bear no ill will towards anyone else. most religions for the general public preach tolerance of a degree.

The Koran and the Muslim belifes have been taken by those that want war and to hurt others (they have there reasons to gain power or they just enjoy it) and they have used the text to promote violance and hatred.

I am sure there are those that would react in a negitive manner if it had been a bible.

In reguards to what the soldier did, if he knew it was a Koran he should get a dishonorable discharge. If not, then severe punishment because of the mistake.

The region here has a major issue, the people are needing help, not cultrually but from those that want to cause strife and war to gain there own power.

Jihad by the sword is the problem, the people do have a belife its good because fighting was a major part of there lives for thousands of years.

If we can help them see that there are more ways to fight then with swords guns and bombs then.. maybe, they can rise up to be a major player in the world.

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What's right is right, and what's wrong is wrong.
by grimgraphix / May 18, 2008 2:18 PM PDT

Anyone who can't tell the wrong from the right here is just a sad, sad person.

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The repercussions of a bone head shooting a holy book.
by grimgraphix / May 19, 2008 3:29 AM PDT

Iraq's most powerful Sunni Arab political party on Monday said a U.S. soldier's desecration of the Quran, the Muslim holy book, requires the "severest of punishments," not just an apology and a military reassignment.

The thing is, I'm not sure these radical muslims are not correct when they call for severe punishments for this soldier. Now before any of you go ape ****, please hear me out.

In the eyes of a lot of these extremists, the "severest of punishments," means death, and I am not even coming close to suggesting that... but what I am saying is that this seemingly innocuous little "good old boy", "ugly american" move on this snipers part may end up costing his fellow troopers and his country, a great deal of lost negotiations, money, and even lives.

The lost time part is obvious, our country is wasting time having to deal with the fall out from what a lot of these folks consider a blasphemous act.

The money issue? Some may not be aware of this, but much of any gain the US has made in its' strategic negotiations over the years in the middle east has been propagated by bribes. Bribery is a part of doing business, even in western culture, but it is especially important (and ubiquitous) in the middle east. This soldier's actions has cost our country more bribe money than he, his kids, and his kid's kids could ever make.

Now, going back to the blasphemy angle... We are talking about a culture here that kills its' female family members for talking to the wrong man, or even for getting raped. Now if their version of family honor means that much to them, then what will a US marines' actions that are the equivalent of saying "your religion sucks, and I spit on it", motivate these people to do? It has been a glib rejoinder for many folks in the US discussing our internal politics, to suggest that any criticism of US policy is a cause for our soldiers to be put in danger in Iraq. Well guess what folks, this marine has put his fellow marines in danger, because it is precisely this kind of action on the part of US representatives that cause middle eastern folks to strap on suicide vests.

Now whether you folks who think I'm scum want to believe me or not... I have never called for any radical punishments for any of our troops who have been accused of crimes during military actions during this war. I have, however, called for the most rigorous investigations into any suspicious incidents and I would do so here again. This incident, should it be true, should cause this marine to suffer the same kind of penalties he would incur if his actions placed any of his fellow soldiers in extreme danger while on the battle field during a fire fight. Why? Because if he did do this, then he has not only made the USA (we ARE supposed to be the good guys who believe in respect and freedom of all religions, right?) look bad, but may well have ended up causing the deaths of some of his fellow soldiers, should some nut case think this is reason enough to go out in a puff of pink mist.

Bottom line is this, we need to be transparent about any investigations, investigate this to the fullest, and come down as hard as military justice will allow IF any malfeasance is discovered. We have made some progress over the past year - once our leaders got their heads out of their butts - so there is no excuse for shooting ourselves in the foot by doing something stupid and then trying to cover it up.

JMO Happy
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