Windows Vista forum

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vista rc2 and micrsofts new improvments to it.

by rwp_17 / October 13, 2006 6:27 AM PDT

so far from what i have read vista is going to make linux look very appealing and make linux market share shoot through the roof

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Re: vista rc2 and micrsofts new improvments to it
by stonehkm / October 13, 2006 7:01 PM PDT

Before you make such a sweeping comment I suggest you try Vista rather than reading about it. I am using it and very happy and surprised at the features:)

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1 tiny little problem with that
by rwp_17 / October 14, 2006 6:21 AM PDT

most machines that are vista capable or vista ready are $1500.00 or more or so i've seen. solution: run it in vmware? wrong i can't seem to get it going in vmware it takes too long to start up even in an upgrade with the vmware drivers already there

so since my machine meets the minimum requirements but is my main machine and i cant' afford to lose it i won't install vista catch my drift. so what i can do is read about it my machine only has 2hd 1 160gb samsung s1604n (already broke the previous exact same model and size and had to have it replaced) and a failing (if not failed already) 40gb maxtor. in case your wondering i broke the first hard drive (before i had to have it replaced) by trying to install linux. so what i am afraid will happen is that it won't take too happily to vista and i will end up breaking this one.

ps: i intend no offense by this post.

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Re:1 tiny little problem with that
by stonehkm / October 14, 2006 7:21 AM PDT

What you just wrote is not the fault of Microsoft! I have an eMachine T6212 bought over 1 year ago. I had already upgraded my memory to 1.5meg and installed a decent graphics card and power supply. My total cost including original machine....$750...where did you get $1500 from? I think you are wearing a blindfold and are just anti-Microsoft:)
Buy an of the shelf machine that is upgradable and just open the box and throw in some upgrades. It is the cheapest way, or go to cyberpower.com and build one for WAY less than $1500!

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Some notes...
by John.Wilkinson / October 14, 2006 7:24 AM PDT

* Actually even most current budget models are capable of running Vista, though that would be in 'reduced graphics mode.' (No glass effect.) They're just not all marked as such yet and stores are pumping the more expensive models for greater profits. For $600 (after rebates) you can find full package deals that can even handle Aero.

* The major thing with running Vista in a virtual machine is that your computer must meet the combined requirements of Windows XP and Windows Vista since they are both essentially running at the same time. Thus, you should have 1GB or more of RAM and even then depending on what software you are running it may be slow and jerky. Performance is much better if you install it normally or in a dual-boot setup.

* Installing on OS onto a hard drive cannot actually break it. If you encounter data corruption you can use a program to completely wipe the entire hard drive and start over. The only thing that can render a drive unusable is physical damage, which isn't a result of software. Thus, I hate to tell you this but either something else caused the drive to die or you replaced a perfectly fine hard drive.

Regards,
John

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okay 1 more issue
by rwp_17 / October 14, 2006 7:37 AM PDT
In reply to: Some notes...

what should i do if i have to uninstall vista. with its boot manager and all

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That depends...
by John.Wilkinson / October 14, 2006 8:14 AM PDT
In reply to: okay 1 more issue

If you decide to dual-boot Vista with Windows XP and then wish to remove Vista you can click here for instructions. On the other hand, if you upgrade from Windows XP to Windows Vista and then want to go back to XP click here.

Hope this helps,
John

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it's the background features
by rwp_17 / October 14, 2006 5:42 PM PDT

that have me saying that

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i just realized something
by rwp_17 / October 14, 2006 7:48 AM PDT

think about after vista other than a true 3d enviroment what major improvements are left to be done on windows. is it a strong possibility that maybe the windows base has been stretched to its improvement limit?

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Microsoft is pondering that now...
by John.Wilkinson / October 14, 2006 8:19 AM PDT

Windows codename Vienna (the eventual successor to Vista) will feature a completely redesigned user interface, which was at one point supposed to be done in Vista. Details are sketchy but it will either be a pie-style interface or a completely 3D interface.

Aside from that they are still deciding what major innovations can set Vienna apart from Vista, aside from updates supporting new technologies. Of course we probably won't hear much for at least a year or two there's always room for improvement. (Five years ago who thought you'd be able to insert a flash drive to speed up your computer or that hybrid drives could cut boot time down to a few seconds?)

John

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i wonder why they don't just put both in there
by rwp_17 / October 14, 2006 10:06 AM PDT

and support alternative graphical user interfaces
by adding a terminal level under the gui

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They likely will...
by John.Wilkinson / October 14, 2006 10:18 AM PDT

The new interface was planned for Vienna, then bumped to Vista, but they realized they wouldn't be able to get it done in time so they bumped it back to Vienna. When it does finally come out they will probably give users a choice, just like they do now between the default and the 'Windows Classic' layout.

John

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another reason microsoft will lose market share
by rwp_17 / October 14, 2006 5:33 PM PDT

Google for palladium and you will know.
combine that with the elimination on volume license keys and the constant checking that will eat up everyone's bandwidth and force them to switch to a cheaper less band width intensive os or switch to cable internet on a T3 connection.

also there is also the possibility that all this palladium and drm and software protection platform junk will steer people back towards more primitive ways of entertainment like tv and console gaming.

eventually all this will trigger a complete and total downfall of the computer market aside from business use thus drastically changing everyday life.of course that is most likely years off and won't happen until the public gets a voice and rebels against corporate control of their lives.

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I am sorry, but
by stonehkm / October 15, 2006 8:22 AM PDT

You have read what John and others have to say, but choose to remain on the negative offensive. Sounds like you are on dial up the way you refer to Cable and T3. T3 is a phone line...Cable is your neighborhood cable TV provider, which I use.
You could wonder away into the open source world of Linux and stay happy, but your comments say you wish you were in the world of M$, but tailored just for you:)

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Geeks are odd
by GreggN / October 17, 2006 11:36 AM PDT

Computer people (including myself) are strange beasts. We gripe and moan about how each successive version of Microsoft Windows is more bloated and demands new hardware purchases. We complain about how Product Activation and Digital Restrictions Managment complicate our lives and remove capabilities upon which we used to rely (think about backup, restore, and hardware upgrades). We know that running a machine with Microsoft Windows is more risky for the simple fact that it is a bigger target for the hackers. Many techs will joke about not being able to keep a Windows machine running for more than 30 days - even if it somehow manages not to crash, the constant barrage of security updates will usually require a reboot (very uncommon with Linux).

Yet, for all our knowledge, we continue to follow Microsoft like sheep. Every CEO is naturally reluctant to leave the pack, strike out on their own, and take a chance on a different o/s. There are good, solid reasons for staying with the Windows monoculture - especially for business.

Lately, it seems that whenever Microsoft takes away more 'rights' that we thought were ours, some brave soul will point out that we should all switch to Linux (or Macintosh) and we'd be out from under the cruel dictatorship of Redmond . . . and that person is absolutely right (though a little bit naive).

It doesn't take long for the Microsoft fanboys to trounce all over our brave soul with arguments, both good and bad, about how Microsoft is the only logical choice.

Frankly, I don't believe that any of these operating systems are the right choice for *everyone*. I will continue to use both Linux and Windows at work, but I chose Linux for my new PC at home. Here are the arguments that convinced me:

1. I like to tinker with my PCs. Upgrading components, trying new devices. This immediately ruled out buying a prebuilt PC with XP. As soon as you change too many things, your license becomes invalid. Just try convincing Microsoft that they should reactivate your license when you've upgraded your motherboard.

2. Cost. Have you ever priced a boxed copy of Windows? !!

3. Trust. Let's face it, Microsoft doesn't trust their customers. Their actions, based on that distrust, are causing enormous grief for us. How can they justify pushing Genuine Advantage Notification out as a 'critical' patch? What makes them think it is okay to use up my CPU and bandwidth with spyware? (spyware: any software that sends information back to the programmer without my consent and express knowledge of the contents of that information)

4. Security. The default security model for Linux is better because the user has limited rights. Moreover, there just aren't as many people attacking Linux - yet.

5. Performance. I'm a member of a grid computing project similar to Folding At Home. My new CPU is nominally 460 MHz faster than my old CPU. That's about a 19% improvement - but my linux machine is processing more than 10 times the tasks each day.

6. Licensing. This may seem like a repeat of argument #1 - but the Vista model deserves special mention. Activating XP was inconvenient. They've announced that Vista will be worse since they'll only let you activate it twice.

7. Freedom. It seems that Microsoft has been transitioning to a model where they'll let you use your computer as long as you follow their rules. It's *my* computer and Internet connection - not Microsoft's. They don't have the right to suck up my resources with services that spy on me or prevent me from using my machine as I wish.

I won't sugarcoat it. Not everything under Linux is smooth sailing. Sometimes I have to skip websites that refuse to work with anything but Microsoft (like CnetTV.com). But overall, my transition to Linux has been easy and fun. I'm still learning, but Linux was the right choice for me.

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Critical but mostly fair...
by John.Wilkinson / October 17, 2006 12:11 PM PDT
In reply to: Geeks are odd

I have a few minor notes, though, in response to your notes:

1.) Replacing the motherboard does invalidate the warranty, but other hardware changes, no matter how many, don't...you simply have to call Microsoft.

2.) Honestly if I had to pay the current prices for Windows I wouldn't be running Windows on most of my computers, I'd be running Ubuntu, Knoppix, etc. Thankfully I receive a limited number of free licenses from my employer. (They have an agreement with Microsoft so they buy licenses in bulk and eat up the cost.)

3.) Microsoft now makes you agree to a special disclosure when you install the WGA updates, but I agree that they should have been more up-front from the beginning and that it should not be considered a critical security patch.

4.) Security is definitely a problem. What gets me to some degree, though, is that Symantec, McAfee, and others have complained about Microsoft securing the kernel. I understand that they fear losing control over it, both for financial and security reasons, but while AV software may be locked out so is malware. That's a good thing overall. They've also complained about Microsoft creating the SecurityCenter and also creating OneCare. I wonder how they'd react if Windows suddenly was as secure as Mac OS X. Devil

5.) Yep, Ubuntu certainly does run faster than XP on my computers.

6.) Actually you'll be able to activate Vista an unlimited number of times, just like XP. The catch is that you'll only be able to activate it on two different computers during the key's life. Microsoft intended to have that limitation in XP but never added the wording so XP can be moved to new hardware an unlimited number of times.

7.) I don't agree there. If you agree to the licensing agreement then you have given them the right to limit your usage of the software, as opposed to not being able to use it at all. However, I do disagree with some of the licensing terms, such as the restriction on moving the license only once as well as the new restriction on using Home Basic and Home premium in virtual machines.

The security, performance, and licensing issues have not become great enough for me to switch to Linux, particularly since I don't have the expense of purchasing licenses, but I do dual-boot some systems with Linux distros and use my Ubuntu LiveCD frequently. We'll see if/how that usage ratio changes in the coming years.

John

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minor rebuttal for common sense
by GreggN / October 17, 2006 2:26 PM PDT

How far have we come from the common sense rules of our forefathers?

Why should I have to beg Microsoft to allow me to use my computer again after hardware upgrades? Didn't they already get their money in exchange for my right to run Windows? Ahh, but they don't trust me to stick to my part of the bargain.

You've pointed out the fact that Windows users agree to all sorts of things with the click on a EULA. Very true. But as a matter of practicality, almost nobody reads those things. Users are inundated with frequent EULA dialog boxes - written *by* lawyers *for* lawyers. Most users have resigned themselves to clicking through the dialog box so that they can get on with what they want to do. They can't understand the legalese anyway. Recently, pcpitstop buried a reward paragraph within their EULA and seemed to be surprised at how long it took somebody to claim the reward. I'm surprised that anyone ever claimed it.

Got to agree with you about the silliness of the security vendors. Microsoft has a history of releasing software with various shortcomings. Naturally, with such a large market, a cottage industry develops to fill the need. Frequently, Microsoft will absorb some company to fill the need and put the cottage industry out of business. Is it wrong for Microsoft to improve their product? - of course not. Is it fair for the cottage industries to demand that holes be left for them to fill? - absolutely not. . . . On the other hand, Microsoft was planning to close off a low level of system access. Since Windows isn't open source, we'd be putting a lot of faith that their code was tight and couldn't be taken over by a hacker for nefarious purposes. I seem to recall reading that virtualization technology could be turned against us by a hacker to create malware that would be undetectable by any current methods. All in all, I think that Microsoft should've stuck to their guns on this one - but I recognize the irony of trusting Microsoft when they won't trust me.

Licensing of software and copyright holders has gotten completely out of control. Why should Microsoft have the 'right' to restrict how I use what I paid for? Where do they get the chutzpah to declare that my license is invalid just because I upgraded my motherboard? They got their money for the license. The license isn't being used by anyone else. Can a hardware store sell you a hammer - but prevent you from using it to fix your neighbor's house? Or make it illegal to replace the handle? Or restrict you from loaning it to your brother? Or say that it can't be used anymore if you give it to charity? Microsoft and the multimedia industry both do these things with their licenses because they have the lawyers and the lobbyists and the technical expertise to get their own way.

I never liked being bullied on the playground. Thankfully, we can play with the Mac or Linux instead of Windows.

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I'd be very surprised ...
by Trane Francks / October 17, 2006 9:55 PM PDT

... if Linux benefits much from Vista's shortcomings. At all.

For the vast majority of users, Windows has always been and, most likely, always will be "good enough". There are programs on Windows that work very, very well and aside from the ME fiasco, Windows has largely been a reliable platform on mainstream hardware.

I've been doing Slackware for a long time, but the fact is that there is software on Windows that I need that simply does not exist on Linux. I suspect that such niches will exist for a very long time. Software parity doesn't exist. Do I want to watch a CNet Video Review? Tough noogies if you want to do that on Linux. You gotta have Flash 8. Guess what? There is no Flash 8 on Linux.

So, no, I don't agree with what you say here. Windows looks as attractive as it ever has. Windows fans might be moved to upgrade to get the latest and greatest. The rest of the "good enough" crowd will wait till they buy a new PC and use Vista included with that.

That's reality.

Linux's market share will grow by a mere burp over the next 10 years, regardless of how good it currently is or how much it improves. Windows has the momentum and will for a very, very long time.

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