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Speakeasy

Rant

They're taking their ball and going home

by JP Bill / November 12, 2012 / 8:46 PM UTC
Citizens in 21 states ask to secede after Obama re-election

Within a week of U.S. President Barack Obama's re-election, citizens from 21 states have filed petitions asking to secede from the United States, according to the White House website.

Louisiana was first, posting its request on Nov. 7.

It was soon joined by Texas, on Nov. 9.

In asking for the president to "peacefully grant" permission for his state to withdraw from the union, creator Micah H., of Arlington, wrote: "To do so would protect its citizens' standard of living and re-secure their rights and liberties in accordance with the original ideas and beliefs of our founding fathers which are no longer being reflected by the federal government."
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So what does that mean
by Steven Haninger / November 13, 2012 / 1:46 AM UTC

and how should the government react? Do stores change their policies when customers stop liking their products and services?

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RE: So what does that mean
by JP Bill / November 13, 2012 / 3:13 AM UTC
In reply to: So what does that mean

It means they're sore losers and they are behaving like children.

Do you think EVERYBODY in the states that want to secede WANTS to secede?

HOW will THEY decide to secede.....With an election?

And If a section of the state wants to secede?

So many questions.

and how should the government react?

Since they are "asking"....... just say NO.

I'm amazed the Democrats didn't think of this went GW Bush got elected the second time, I guess it was too childish EVEN for them.

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Numbers...give me numbers
by Steven Haninger / November 13, 2012 / 3:31 AM UTC

All the article says is that citizens from 21 states have expressed a desire to secede. So you're right in asking how many. It could be just 21 people. To me, it's sounds like a slow news day story. IOW, there's no story at all. My question would be, should there be a significant number of people unhappy with the choice of the president, what should the elected do about it? Perhaps they just shouldn't worry about them?...unless their numbers are greater than 47%? Devil

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If you checked the links "in the article"
by JP Bill / November 13, 2012 / 3:47 AM UTC
You would have your numbers

And YES it was a slow news day...and it appears today will be another.

Here's another petition

Deport Everyone That Signed A Petition To Withdraw Their State From The United States Of America. 320 signers
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People will sign a petition that's brought to them
by Steven Haninger / November 13, 2012 / 4:08 AM UTC

more readily than they'll draw one up. I'll sign a petition to get something on the ballot even if I'm not in favor of what the intended outcome is. We've a right to have our voices heard, aren't we?...and we let others have theirs, don't we? We shouldn't be suppressing people just because they have opinions we don't share.

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RE: I'll sign a petition to get something on the ballot
by JP Bill / November 13, 2012 / 4:22 AM UTC
I'll sign a petition to get something on the ballot even if I'm not in favor of what the intended outcome is.

That explains why the ballots are so long. If everybody had that attitude...It defeats the need to collect signatures.

The petitions that we're talking about take one side of an argument, so wouldn't you be agreeing to the position on the petition?

Allow for the peaceful withdrawal of Ohio from the United States of America such that it becomes its own free nation.

You only need approx 21,000 more

Ohio can stand on its own as a free and independent nation, separate from the United States of America, while remaining on friendly terms with the United States of America.

Have you ever been "Unfriended"? Devil
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One needs to think and be reasonable, don't they
by Steven Haninger / November 13, 2012 / 5:34 AM UTC

No, I wouldn't say that signing a petition infers support for its objective. There can be issues that, IMO, just need to be brought out into the open so they can be discussed and put to rest one way or the other. I have signed petitions that I know I'd not vote in favor of just for that reason. Does that make sense to you? Why should important issues lay around waiting for politicians to kick them around and decide whether the time is politically right when their constituents are clamoring for decisions? That's one reason citizens can draw up petitions and get them on the ballot. We can override our political leaders if enough of us care to. As to being "unfriended", that's some social media term. I don't participate in those unless you consider SE as being a social network. In that case, just about everyone here gets unfriended almost daily. Wink

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RE: I wouldn't say that signing a petition
by JP Bill / November 13, 2012 / 6:23 AM UTC

I wouldn't say that signing a petition infers support for its objective.

I would........ You wouldn't "say it"/agree because you'd have no reason to respond?

we petition the Obama administration to:
Allow for the peaceful withdrawal of Ohio from the United States of America such that it becomes its own free nation.


And you sign the above petition and you claim you're not supporting the petition?

I guess signing a contract also doesn't mean you'll do what you've agreed to.

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You're not understanding something
by Steven Haninger / November 13, 2012 / 6:49 AM UTC

I'm referring to petitions that allow something to be voted upon. Citizens can petition the government to get something on the ballot. Signing a petition may or may not mean support for the measure being proposed. Signing a petition expresses one's willingness to see it on the ballot. It's not a "contract" to vote in favor of it. Bye now.

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Signing a petition may or may not mean support
by JP Bill / November 13, 2012 / 7:59 AM UTC

Signing a petition may or may not mean support for the measure being proposed.

A petition is an opinionated paper that is used to protest against something unfair or disagreeable.

Opinionated?...but ANY petition may or may not mean support for the measure being proposed?

I'm sorry Steven...I have to disagree with you...petitions ARE opinionated.

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A lot depends on the wording of the petition
by TONI H / November 13, 2012 / 8:39 AM UTC

No matter what the 'cause' might be, if the petition is specifically geared to get something on a ballot, and it happens to be the only type of petition being circulated, most people will sign it whether they are for or against that cause just to get it on the ballot so they can vote for or against.

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Maybe things are different where you come from
by Steven Haninger / November 13, 2012 / 11:00 AM UTC

We have at least two types of clip board carriers that come to our door. One type is usually by some activist group looking to give names to people in government who do or would support some measure. Classic examples are such as "environmentalists" and they often support some very local concern such as a zoning permit, construction permit, etc. which they are generally against. They are lobbying the decision makers. Most often, these folk will also ask for money to further their endeavors. For the most part, they are not volunteers but are paid from what they collect. They may or may not even be all that interested in the specific issue they represent. I will choose to sign or not sign their clipboard depending on how I feel about that particular issue. The other petition type...the real one...is the ballot petition. You will often see these after some law has been passed which is unpopular with a group of citizens. They will go door to door collecting signatures in an effort to place the issue on the ballot so the voters can decide directly. The same can be done preemptively if some issue is going before local government officials but some group wants the voters to decide directly. They, by law, can petition for direct vote in a lot of cases. This also goes for "recall" elections. A petition is circulated and, if enough signatures are collected, an official can be removed. I've not seen these petitioners to be collecting money at the same time, however.

I'm in favor of direct vote almost anytime something becomes a hot issue in government and it seems that politics are being played. When this happens, I'd like the citizens to take over and make the decision. It really shouldn't be how I want it or my next door neighbor wants it but by what the greater community desires. I will sign almost any such petition regardless of whether I'm on one side or the other. That's the American way. Happy

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Your second example
by TONI H / November 13, 2012 / 11:12 AM UTC

is usually the one that goes around here......>>The other petition type...the real one...is the ballot petition. You will often see these after some law has been passed which is unpopular with a group of citizens. They will go door to door collecting signatures in an effort to place the issue on the ballot so the voters can decide directly. The same can be done preemptively if some issue is going before local government officials but some group wants the voters to decide directly. They, by law, can petition for direct vote in a lot of cases. >>>

Occasionally, depending upon how it's worded, it will be passed around by some group that wants something to get on the ballot. Whether you agree with what their cause is or not, it's the only petition going around and if the end result is that, with enough signatures on the petition, it gets onto the ballot, then I'm okay with signing it because I will have a vote either way once I'm in the booth.

I agree that I prefer the direct vote rather than having a board of supervisors deciding issues for me and others that I don't agree with. Unfortunately, most decision making is done by 5 people 'for the good of all' and unless you go to the board meetings on a regular basis, you never find out until it's too late and already passed into local law what they had planned to do.......and even if you do find out ahead of time, the board also has the ability to not allow it to get to a ballot citizen vote.

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Additionally
by Steven Haninger / November 13, 2012 / 11:30 AM UTC

When something gets put on the ballot, more information comes out that helps in ones decision making. We also get to watch the two sides of the issue make fools of themselves lying about what will happen if... That's also become the American way.

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RE: The other petition type...the real one...
by JP Bill / November 13, 2012 / 12:01 PM UTC

The other petition type...the real one...is the ballot petition.

I guess the petition IN THIS THREAD is NOT THE REAL ONE then?

I've been talking about the petition to secede and you've been talking about a petition to put something on the ballot.

Strange that you haven't mentioned "Initiative/Ballot Petition" until now.

I think you're pedaling your bicycle backwards.

Should someone tell those with the Petition to Secede...it's not a real petition?

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JP...a petition to secede cannot become law that way
by Steven Haninger / November 13, 2012 / 12:46 PM UTC

If the entire population signs the petition, it won't become law automatically. There still needs to be a written proposal and some other legal process including someone voting on it.

Let me ask you this. Let's say there was some controversial matter in your part of the world that needed a decision. Lets say that you were not in favor of a proposed plan but there was a movement to put it to a vote. Would you do whatever you could to block the process of letting the people decide by voting? Do we make decisions based just one what we want for our self and to heck with what anyone else wants? I'd say that thinking is rather selfish but there's certainly a lot of that going around.

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RE: a petition to secede cannot become law that way
by JP Bill / November 13, 2012 / 1:05 PM UTC

Did I say that?

Let me ask you this. Let's say there was some controversial matter in your part of the world that needed a decision. Lets say that you were not in favor of a proposed plan but there was a movement to put it to a vote. Would you do whatever you could to block the process of letting the people decide by voting? Do we make decisions based just one what we want for our self and to heck with what anyone else wants? I'd say that thinking is rather selfish but there's certainly a lot of that going around.

There IS a difference between "blocking" and "helping"

Let ME ask YOU this.

Why would you encourage/help them by signing THEIR petition?

Do we make decisions based just on what we want for our self and to heck with what anyone else wants?

That's the way it would look if you voted against what another person wanted.

I'm voting against what you want because it's better for you...Don't bother thanking me.

AND it is different "up here" we don't cut our own throats. by signing petitions for something we don't believe in.

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JP...the petition to secede
by TONI H / November 13, 2012 / 12:35 PM UTC

can only be a real petition if it can make its way to the ballot for a statewide vote...otherwise it's just a piece of paper that means nothing. There has to be a certain number of signatures to make it real, then it has to be presented to a board of some sort to be approved for the ballot, then it has to be voted on, and if passed, it has to be given permission by the President to become valid. I'm pretty sure that's the correct order of things.

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maybe not
by James Denison / November 13, 2012 / 3:56 AM UTC
"It means they're sore losers and they are behaving like children."

A typical Canadian outlook, not surprising considering their history, but one that most Americans wouldn't agree with when they considered our history, founding fathers, the Declaration of Independence, and resulting new nation.

I can understand why the majority of states might like to carve off the original 13 colonies and let them go their own way, since that's a lot of people in a small space thinking they know better what should be done in all the rest of the large space of this country, more than those who actually live there. It would free up the oil states, the coal states, the mining states, and some states that have such a large amount of their area as federal lands would gain that for their own purposes. In a way the other states have been too controlled by the eastern states, and not necessarily to their choices or resources.
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When the going gets tough?
by JP Bill / November 13, 2012 / 4:00 AM UTC
In reply to: maybe not

The tough take off?

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Some did
by Steven Haninger / November 13, 2012 / 4:09 AM UTC

They left merry old England and headed west.

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(NT) I guess they shouldn't have stopped until they reached China
by JP Bill / November 13, 2012 / 4:23 AM UTC
In reply to: Some did
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they thought they reached India
by James Denison / November 13, 2012 / 6:39 AM UTC

that was their intent

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(NT) They didn't realize by 1776?
by JP Bill / November 13, 2012 / 8:32 AM UTC
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been there, tried that, didn't work
by Roger NC / November 13, 2012 / 3:58 AM UTC

my state is one of them.

Obviously, people are getting dumber all the time.

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And even a story about that
by Steven Haninger / November 13, 2012 / 4:02 AM UTC
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on a serious aside
by Roger NC / November 13, 2012 / 5:22 AM UTC

the fact that inherited conditions are often treatable now and more carrying them have offspring I think accounts for some if not a large part of the increases in some diseases and conditions.

Does that mean we shouldn't save someone having an severe allergic reaction to peanuts? of course not? should we sterlize? again of course not.

The nut allergy was just the first common one that popped into mind. Many congential defects now are treatable if no completely correctable so the genes gets passed on. Since these conditions occur in families sometimes with no previous history, there must be a combination of probably recessive genes involved so the ones displaying the illness are not the only carriers.

Are we physically weaking the human race with better medical care? There is the opposite, very real benefit. As the article mentioned, a few hundred years ago there would be no Stephen Hawkings.

.

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The whole issue of medical morals is a difficult one
by Steven Haninger / November 13, 2012 / 5:55 AM UTC
In reply to: on a serious aside

There's a question in an old Charles Wesley hymn. It starts out something like "Am I born to die". A newer folk song goes something like "Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die". No one's gotten out of here alive yet.

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(NT) maybe jimmy hoffa found a way.....
by Roger NC / November 13, 2012 / 5:05 PM UTC
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didn't work?
by James Denison / November 13, 2012 / 6:40 AM UTC

It wasn't give the chance to work. Blaming the victim?

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