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There are those who eat lobster

by crowsfoot / February 9, 2013 7:00 PM PST

and prime rib on a regular basis. Weirdly, they are the same ones who do the least physical work.

I almost came to blows with a friend of mine who wouldn't come off the statement that: "the harder you work, the less money you make".Now, I see no way to contridict him.

There seems to be this context, evolved over many many years, where there's an us and there's a them. Them, appearently, are undeserving. Them's parents didn't kick the doody out of enough us'n's. Isn't that about right?

The American Indians would argue, I believe, that there should be more of even split.

All work on the one side and all lobster on the other, is just somehow wrong.

Do you really think that asses stay kicked forever? Or that we can keep upping the cost until they'll forget?

http://billmoyers.com/segment/nick-turse-describes-the-real-vietnam-war/

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Do you honestly believe
by TONI H / February 9, 2013 8:27 PM PST

there will be a time when every single person is equal to the one next to them? All do the same amount of labor and all do the same amount of innovating and all share equally in living styles? If you do, you're dreaming of a world that should not exist. Even the wildest of animals know better by instinct alone that there is always a hierarchy that must be maintained or chaos takes over.

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When he went to school
by James Denison / February 9, 2013 8:56 PM PST

Maybe everyone made the same grade, in the same class, with the same curricula.

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your quote is often used referring to physcial work
by Roger NC / February 9, 2013 11:08 PM PST

and the fact when you work in construction or factory work the better paying jobs are less demanding physically than the lower paying ones.

Goes along with the adage you'll never get rich working for someone else. Of course, I've seen a few people try to start their own business to get rich end up losing everything and in the hole. The percentage of success for people starting their own business is pretty low.

When you're working the manual labor jobs at the bottom, it's easy to think the guy who just walks up and hands out the work and then goes back in the office isn't doing much for his money. They don't consider the less physical work as hard. It's normally a misconception.

It's also wrong that many in lower and midde management jobs don't see workers as people, only biological machines.

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From the rich to the less wealthy we often hear
by Steven Haninger / February 10, 2013 12:24 AM PST

the word "greed" as the difference. I don't believe that to be true at all. I've not seen much difference in greed from the top to the bottom. The difference I see most along that path is one of ambition. Greed is a common ingredient and ambition only the catalyst that produces a desired result.

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some truth there
by Roger NC / February 10, 2013 1:11 AM PST

but even with greed and ambition some will never rise.

Today even more than in the past, because there are less paths from the bottom to the top, and less acceptance of giving anyone without specific resources a chance.

In industry, in the past you could hire on as a janitor and with work, effort, including work improving yourself outside of your job itself, move up. Retired now, but when I started my current job, the HR head literally started as a janitor there out of high school.

Now industy less and less will move anyone from blue collar to white collar based on work experience. You can't be managment most places now without that piece of paper. Many now don't even hire helpers and train for skilled labor jobs (welders, electricans are ony two examples). You have to have a community college associate degree to get an interview or employment appititude test for such work. When I applied for my current job back in 97, they used the unemployment office as a screening facility. There was an employment ad without identifying the employer.

I had to go to an interview at the unemployment office, proof of a two year degree, 10 years or more experience in one of 3 field, and if they passed then I was told who the employer was, where and when the testing would start, and a pass to get into the testing. We had a several page paper test, then the survivors of that were given hands on testing.

I remember when I was in night classes a younger guy asking how could he get a job when they all seem to require 2 years experience minimum in the field plus the 2 year degree he was working toward. The teacher told him after getting his degree, he'd probably have to get a job for a few years somewhere like a Purdue chicken processing plant. That was just the most desperate nearby. They had a huge turnover because of rather unpleasant working conditions, low pay, poor benefits, even for "skilled labor". But they provided a training ground for other jobs basically.

Indeed, I'm sad to say that over my working life, I've seen making friends with the right people without being a hard worker doing as much good as doing good work. Who you hunt, fish, or play golf with can matter more than how good you do your job.

Back to the subject, even if someone wants to move up, just working harder often won't do it anymore. Just being ambitious won't either. I'll grant you find greed at all social-economic levels and groups.

What's that old saying though? to whom much is given much is expected? probably just some envious guy came up with it trying to justify his envy I suspose. We hear more often watch out for number 1 because no one else will.

As far as pithy sayings.......

The hand patting you on the back is concealing a knife.

Lord help me not step on feet today that are connected to the as s I'll have to kiss tomorrow.

When in trouble, delegate responsibility.

That's without getting into any sayings that were on my old (lost) Murphey's Law wall poster. Of course, there have been several different variations of those.

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Your oft quoted saying is from the Bible, BTW
by Steven Haninger / February 10, 2013 2:57 AM PST
In reply to: some truth there

and it follows a rather long talk about the fallacy of storing up earthly treasure for an earthy future...that all you need will be provided and mentions that those who receive the most will have more expected of them.

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remember the futility of planning too much
by Roger NC / February 10, 2013 3:14 AM PST

but then that story doesn't seem to be taken too far, since most religious people I know are also a bit of the you have to be self reliant in this world type. They frown on eat drink and be merry without saving for tomorrow too.

Didn''t really recall right off the top that those who receive are expected to do more being part of it.

Contradiction in a way. I would say the story was not being totally preoccupied with the earthy treasure view, not about fallacy of storing up earthly goods in itself, since as I note most religious seem to believe in self reliance and planning for the future even while condemning forgetting putting unworldy things first.

So you're expected to store up but then to believe what you need will be provided. Nothing new in inconsistency in religious doctrine, not that doctrine and faith are exactly the same.

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I'm really not much for arguing scripture
by Steven Haninger / February 10, 2013 3:30 AM PST

and this one is particularly full of a variety of interpretations. Being provided for doesn't mean manna from heaven but only that we should not obsess with building bigger barns when ours are already full. I think we'd need to merge a few of the lessons to find the similarities such as another parable where persons were given different numbers of "talents". We need to use the lesson as not about money but about abilities. I believe Bill Gates used the expression you cited earlier as we know his charitable foundation gives much and also has other contributors. The difficulty we humans have is in recognizing that we already have enough. It doesn't mean we necessarily get to stop and coast, however.

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I can agree with that in general at least.
by Roger NC / February 10, 2013 3:38 AM PST

even without referencing any afterlife.

Just being a decent human would still involve observing most of that.

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Strangely enough, many similar concepts that
by Steven Haninger / February 10, 2013 4:11 AM PST

also derive from secular thinking are contained in the ancient manuscripts. However, using those parallel thoughts becomes problematic when we try to argue for separation of church and state. I've heard it said that we don't need to try and make God come to us. He's already there...like it or not. Happy

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what's so great about
by James Denison / February 10, 2013 3:25 AM PST
In reply to: some truth there

being "at the top"? Seems most would be happy to be "off the bottom" somewhere in the middle. There are miserable people all the way from the top to the botto and back up again. Must be something other than money that keeps that from happening. Maybe something inside each of us?

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it seems for those at the top, there is always a little
by Roger NC / February 10, 2013 3:37 AM PST
In reply to: what's so great about

more to reach........

More money, or more power, or more fame............

there is always someone or something to want to beat.

Some of that miserable up and down the chain is from the feeling of never having quite enough. Either envy or insecurity demands just a little more of something.

Similar perhaps to some that won't retire because they're never quite sure they have enough to be comfortable. Granted one medical disaster, even with medicare, can wipe up your savings and investments. And right now fear over losing medicare and insurance contributes.

I remember some saying you were better off without much savings after you retired. If you got sick, you'd lose it all. If you didn't have it either Medicare and Medicade would pay for it or you'd die. Either way, you wouldn't get to keep your savings for enjoying what life you had left.

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One could keep money hidden
by James Denison / February 10, 2013 8:04 AM PST

in ways it can't be tracked.

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unless you've got enough to involve off shore
by Roger NC / February 10, 2013 11:32 AM PST

accounts to conceal it, burying cash certainly won't make you anything.

It's hard for a man with less than a million in assets to really shelter them from the government.

Of course, many of those ways of hiding are shady at best and out and out illegal at worse.


And you can't really hide your house, cars, etc, although sometimes you can put them in someone else name and hope you can trust them not to decide to sell and keep the money.

Besides, medicaid can claw back gifts to others for last 4 or 5 years if you end up owing them.

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Another major drawback
by TONI H / February 10, 2013 3:53 AM PST
In reply to: some truth there

in trying to 'move up' at least on a financial level is the Federal government moving the bar for what is considered to be the poverty level........it makes it much more difficult to even get a sense of security as 'lower middle class' when the highest poverty level today is what would have been middle middle class a few short years ago.

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the sense of security can be a problem
by Roger NC / February 10, 2013 11:39 AM PST
In reply to: Another major drawback

but less face it, in terms of dollars without adjustment, what would have been at least lower middle class even 25 years ago wouldn't be now.

Inflation is a ***** in terms of making you feel like you money isn't worth enough.

You really have to look at the price of everything in terms of how long do you have to work to earn that many $'s. That's the only way to keep it even over the years.

Giving away my age, but at 16 gasoline was 29-31 cents a gallon. By the time I started to work full time it was about $1, my wages were $2.25 at the beginning I think. Now call it $4 a gallon, and it seems outrageous, but I'm lucky enough that my wages are more than $10 / hr now. So does gas really cost me any more now than then? Espcially when you consider my car gets 30 mpg instead of 15.

The only way you can compare the price of something now to the price back when is by how long you had to work to pay for it.

In the past, most people manage to gradually get better jobs as they aged and learned. Today things are a bit rocky. And there is a movement to drive wages and benefits down because there is a surplus of people looking for work.

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Where's the connection?
by Willy / February 10, 2013 1:08 AM PST

You gave a link and it appears not related to your post. It so happens I saw that last night and found it not all misleading but rather ironic that someone born in '75 gives details about a war he never experienced and only got on it once someone else provides documents of "war crimes" yet wasn't the basis initially for his work. Well, guess what war is hell and people die on both sides. It's nothing new, been going since cave man walked. I also find it displeasing to have to engage in war, where the enemy is hiding within the populace and you wonder why they get killed. It's as much the enemy fault as those seeking them. After being in country you know what is best trail to walk on if the local folk use it too or avoid areas where no locals go. Further, locals got killed by the other side as as easily if they didn't cooperate. Guess what, war is hell. the good thing about war is its over.

So what the heck does Vietnam have to do about lobster? You want people to be happy, then give them a chance to succeed. If you reduce or cut off any inkling of success you create a society that sooner later erupts. That's why there was a French revolution, the American revolution and even Communism. These are outside of outright aggression or expansion of one's nation or region. Think in terms of Alexander the great, Roman Empire, Nazis or Communism. Don't be surprised if you're a rich area and you neighbor wants it too. Either by nation standards or you next door neighbor. If gain or benefit can be had with little harm or cost to you, that's seems to be enough to get into what ever comes about. -----Willy off soapbox Shocked

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Willy,
by crowsfoot / February 11, 2013 5:55 AM PST

I was born in '49. I was called up for my preinduction physical in '68.

Thank you all for the thoughtful replies.

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I tend to agree that he's not qualified to say much
by Steven Haninger / February 11, 2013 6:50 AM PST

People derive more hatred and bigotry from what they've read of the past than what they've experienced themselves. At some point, all we have to go by is what has been written. What has been written can, in no way, describe all that has happened.

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A lot of assumptions there Steven.
by crowsfoot / February 11, 2013 9:11 AM PST

Most of my life I was an independant contractor who witheld taxes on my employees. At the same time I tried to teach what it took to be a legal company.

You're painting me with the jealousy thing. I reject that. My whole history is playing by the rules and not trying to beat the system. Everybody who came to work for me had my wholehearted instruction as to coming into and living with the system.

All I'm saying is that there's money that money makes. And money that labor makes. I believe there's an inballance. Some sit by the pool waiting for the dividends check. Some show up in the morning and shovel dirt all day. And the fruits of all this is not split up in any kind of a logical way. Not unless you think asses, once kicked, stay that way. Me? I don't.

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(NT) I'm only referring to the author of the book.
by Steven Haninger / February 11, 2013 5:51 PM PST
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