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and another one
Do they really believe this benefits them in the world of today? The burning of their hate will eventually consume them too, not just in this life, and they don't seem to realize it. They will be burning in hell along with the ones they wanted to send there.Even the OT condemned those who held to "old hate" during times of peace.
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
Your sympathies are really out of whack
This isn't the first time you've bemoaned the treatment of a former Nazi. Maybe it ties in with your previously stated belief that the Jews brought that genocide upon themselves.
As for Japanese prison guards, the Wiesenthal Center is about antisemitism and the Holocaust. I'm sure you can find other organizations who deal with other types of war criminals.
How long did that last?
About 10 years if you include the lead up to the war. How long as the reverse hate continued? Six times longer! How is dragging elderly people who can't even remember half of what they've done in the past week into a courtroom accomplish anything, other than the satisfaction of long term hate satiation? This was all supposed to have been satisfied in the trials after that war, and for some years it was sufficient, but the new purveyors of hate the new "Nazis" urged by Simon Weisenthal and his ilk to stir things up again came along. If those who served in during the Nazi years were personally devoted to the policies of that time, they'd have continued to do the same things to this day in secret groups, etc. What instead did they do? They did like soldiers always do after a conflict is over, they went home, took up their lives where it had been diverted by the politics and wars of that day. In other words, if there was hate, they set it aside once the regime that inspired it was ended. Yet, 60 years or more later, the hate from the other side continues, never set aside, never let the past settle and be done with it. Interestingly, there will be some penitent Nazis who may end up in heaven and look down on those in hell who continue to feed their continual hate, hiding it behind a rotting veil of justice.
As I've told you before, my father lost his brother in that war, the one just ahead of him in age. Nobody in our family hates the Nazis for it. It was war. Nobody in my family would even want to hang onto old hurts and hates over his loss to try and track down the persons or group that was responsible for the booby trap left behind which killed him. The Weisenthal Center though, continues to serve as the temple of hate for those who do.
Here's the principle of their condemnation
1 Kings chapter 2
"As David's time to die drew near, he charged Solomon his son, saying, "I am going the way of all the earth. Be strong, therefore, and show yourself a man..... "Now you also know what Joab the son of Zeruiah did to me, what he did to the two commanders of the armies of Israel, to Abner the son of Ner, and to Amasa the son of Jether, whom he killed; he also shed the blood of war in peace. And he put the blood of war on his belt about his waist, and on his sandals on his feet. "So act according to your wisdom, and do not let his gray hair go down to Sheol in peace."
So the new argument is....
....."Hey, the Holocaust only lasted ten years; let it go already?"
That war is long over
there was sufficient time and resources devoted to prosecutions following the war by the govts involved. What we see now is a private race based hate group stirring it all up again. Ever hear the phrase, "War is Hell"? It's not just for those killed but for those who served and survived. If these soldiers had continued their ways then it would have fully indicated they were personally responsible, same as those who commanded them. Those who didn't continue in it once freed from the system, should be the same as the Jewish kapos who are not pursued by these haters. In fact, one could say those who were the Jewish kapos were even more guilty since they did crimes against those of their own race. Yet, even today, some of the kapos sit in security in Israel, although they do face rejection by others there who know their history. They bear their on shame in the matter, and such should be the same rule applied to former Nazi soldiers. It's over with, a long time ago, and far past time the Weisenthal Center and those who allow their activities should simply accept it.
An irony perhaps
I remember being told during school days that a major reason Jews were disliked in many countries was that they controlled too much of the money. They were said to have owned the banks and too much of the retail business. They were also said to have engaged in a type of cronyism that gave Jewish too many unfair advantages. How true this is, I can't possibly know as there are plenty of stories about poor Jews as well. In any event, if there's any truth to this, I find it ironic that the same reasons for despise and desire to persecute still exist but not toward the Jewish. The animosity is still directed toward those who have and control money meaning the bankers and business people. Government's today aren't looking to round them up and get rid of them but simply to rob them blind.
Actually, Josh, the Holocaust per se didn't begin until
the invasion of Russia in June 1941, and the Endlosung, or Final Solution wasn't put into action until after the Wannsee conference in either late 41 or early 42. But they certainly made up for lost time in the subsequent four years.
Please note, I'm not trying to gloss over the Nuremberg laws or Kristallnacht or any of the horrors inflicted on Jews in Europe before that, or the deaths which ensued. They just weren't part of the Holocaust, the organized extermination plan.
But I too am quibbling.
I watched Judgement at Nuremberg just the other day. 5 top Nazi Judges sentenced to Life imprisonment, all released within 7 years, which is certainly less than the 1933 to 45 12 year span.
It actually started in 1933
when Jewish businesses were boycotted and Jewish professionals were beaten. That was also the same year that undesirables were sterilized and Dachau was opened.
"the Wiesenthal Center is about antisemitism and the Holocaust."
Yes, it's a hate based race group.
James, your continued allegiance to old Nazis baffles me
And your undisguised anti-Semitism makes me cringe.
I think what you were trying to say is that it is a "race-based hate group" but as with everything in Denisonland you got it backwards.
Clearly The Wiesenthal Centre is not a hate group, because it doesn't pursue all of any racial or ethnic group. It pursues those who committed crimes in the name of the Nazi ideology. The Wiesenthal Centre pursues those Nazis and former Nazis against whom it has documentary evidence to bring charges. Their goal isn't the elimination of all Germans, or all Ukrainians or all of anybody else. It pursues those it believes are guilty of crimes against humanity and against international law.
In the United States and in most jurisdictions, there is no statute of limitations on murder. Whether you're 20 or 100 once you commit a murder, even if somebody else told you to, you're liable to be prosecuted.
So how do you feel about all those Americans found at Malmedy found with their hands wired together behind their backs who were shot by the Waffen SS who weren't even the really bad branch of the SS. Going to post stories about how misunderstood they were? Or maybe those were aberrations, except that there are far too many incidents of those aberrations occurring against British troops or Canadian troops or American troops for it to be an aberration. It was the Nazi belief system that true Aryans were above right and wrong, and above Good and Evil in the words of Nietzche, and above everyone else on earth.
The other thing that puzzles me is that for a guy who can quote scripture, why would you hitch your sympathy to a bunch of pagan anti-Christian killers.
I could never work out......
......how anyone who claims to be Christian can be anti-Semitic, being that Jesus was Jewish, his teachings were Jewish, the last supper was a passover seder, etc.
I'm not anti-anyone except those that hurt others.
I agree, so it's odd
you still believe that it's possible. Obviously I'm not the one suffering confusion on the matter. I've even been to passover once with a Jewish family. The Greeks also have a "kala paska" which is "good passover" that mimics the Jewish passover quite a bit too. The more orthodox among them even do the lamb thing for it too. The children play with the lamb, then it is killed at Passover, and they are introduced to the concept of the Lamb of God being offered for sins, of course with Jesus being the object lesson of it.
your assumptions as always are skewed
I have no love for the Nazis, no animus against Jews. I am not sorry if the concepts of Christianity offend you. As for your continuing lack of understanding many things, I simply leave you to those misconceptions and confusions.
Actually that describes the Nazis you're defending
Are Nazis, or WERE Nazis?
They were Germans serving in their armed forces. That's what they were. The regime in power was Nazi.
No, the individuals you're defending were NAZIS
Whether they still are is irrelevant.
And again, you prove my point
If your point was......
.....that you believe the Nazis were the real victims of the Holocaust, then I suppose I have. You sure you don't want to move to Iran? Their last president didn't think the Holocaust even happened, and according to him there are no homosexuals in that country. You'd still be living in a fantasy world but at least you'd have company.
It's when you start yelling "anti-Semitism" that you both admit it's racist, and that you support a racist approach to the matter. You flip out the race card as if that is some advantage, but in truth it's anti-Germanism by this group since they spend all their time going after German Nazis to the exclusion of others. Flipping the race card is an admission by you, and the other admission you already made, that this is devoted to vengeance desired by one race. It's also an insult to America and every other nation that already dealt with the post War trialsalready at Nuremberg. Sixty years of post war hate, that's what it is. Even Hillel, a Jewish teacher just before Christ time said, "don't do to others that which you objected to being done to you" paraphrased. Christ turned it more positive when he said if you condemn others for what you yourself are doing, then you also condemn yourself. That is why I look at this long held hate and continuing manhunts as a new Nazism, but not by the Germans this time. I do not see this as serving the Jewish cause in any manner and risks alienating even more, turning more against them.
You calling anyone a racist......
.......is like Charlie Sheen telling someone they should ease up on their partying.
Post War Trials at Nuremberg?
You are kidding, right? I'm sorry, I'm not even Jewish and I'd have to call that a pretty pathetic show when it came to bringing Nazi war criminals to justice. You have heard of Operation Paper Clip, right? The CIA's efforts to locate Nazi war criminals were rather pathetic. I'm sorry, but you are the one that is wrong and way out of line here. As someone wisely pointed out here, there is NO statute of limitations on certain crimes. It doesn't matter if they ARE Nazi's or WERE Nazi's. What matters is that they remain WAR CRIMINALS who engaged crimes against humanity. They weren't just fighting for their country in some war. You do realize that even the US Department of Justice had half a dozen active case files still open on Nazi war criminals as of 2012, don't you? If things were already "dealt with" at Nuremberg, why did the US Department of Justice still have half a dozen ACTIVE case files on these people as of 2012? Heck, the FBI still has an open, active 60 volume case file on D.B. Cooper, for crikey sake. Who says a crime is over just because it is old or a person escapes justice just because they are old? The people you attack are simply filling in where other's are lacking in getting the rest of the job done. So what if they feel they have a personal stake in it? Sounds like it serves as motivation others lack to me.
Were you even aware that an American organization gives away an AWARD every year in the name of one of these Nazi criminals brought over here under Paperclip? And that a library at a US Air Force Base had been named in his "honor"? And you think the US has done something other than a half-*** job bringing war criminals to justice. Pffffth!
You spout a lot of ignorance when you try to pull one line from a Jewish teacher. Jewish writings and teachings cover many, many volumes. Where things are to weighed and balanced when rendering a decision under Jewish law and precepts take many years of study and apprenticeship. You think you can quote one line from one teacher and you know something about Jewish law, teachings and thought on how to deal with moral matters?
You don't seem to have your thinking cap on at all. If something is antisemitism, it's antisemitism and calling it out for that does not make one "racist". Hatred is not inherently a bad thing. In fact, since you like to quote scripture, 1st Timothy states that ALL scripture is beneficial for teaching and Psalm 97:10 states that those who love the LORD should hate that which he hates. What does he hate? Proverbs 6:17 "hands that shed innocent blood; hearts that devise wicked ideas". The downright anti-humanitarian things Nazi war criminals did were certainly all of that.
This "poor man" is 98 years old? That is what you have to say for him? It was 70 years ago, let it go? That is what you have to say? I say, if you sow a crop that takes a long time coming to fruition, you'd best be ready when the yield comes because you reap what you sow even if you are 98 years old.
As far as why they are not hunting down Japanese war criminals from that time, I think you will have to "dig up Truman" and chat with HIM about his peace treaty on that matter.
I'm not Jewish, I'm not Christian and I applaud the efforts of this center. Nazi war criminals harmed far too many innocent people, not just Jews and if there is still time to bring them to justice, be they 300 years old, bring them. I'm glad SOMEONE still gives a damn.
You spout off about 70 years ago like it was all that long ago. I don't know about you, but some people knew their great-grandmothers/fathers and rather gave a damned about them. In that context, 70 years wasn't all that long ago
Are you a supporter of this farce 'deal'
that BO and Kerry have made with Iran? If you do, I hope you realize that WHEN Iran decides to go after Israel, it will be much worse than anything the Nazi's dreamed up. As one of their leaders just recently said...."We won't have to hunt them down anymore because they're all in one spot now" and "Israel is a 'one-bomb' target".
I know nothing about the group you are supporting, but I would have a hard time believing that they aren't opposed to what's happening today....especially when part of the deal is that if Israel strikes Iran (or any other nearby country attacks Iran), the USA and the UN will be OBLIGATED to protect Iran from them. Knowing this president's history, I can actually see him agreeing to that because the only thing that's important to him is 'his legacy' and the ability to brag about this great deal he made......he cares nothing about Israel and the destructive force he's about to turn loose in that region of the world.
that this conversation is now over 2 years old?
I see little point in attempting to continue a discussion, or resurrect a discussion, that took place 2 years ago.
I am locking this thread.
If you have anything you wish to raise for yourself and others to discuss, please feel free to raise a new discussion thread.
Saw that and thought much the same
and asked myself "why"? It makes no sense other than to satisfy someone's need for vengeance and too often it's that of children and grandchildren who were taught to hate people they never came in contact with. That's how we perpetuate hatred and make it last through centuries. We teach it to our children to hate our neighbors children so that the fighting will continue. And we call ourselves evolved, advanced and civilized? There are insects with better social behavior than ours.
reminds me of a few bible verses
let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
And from his fullness we have all received, grace upon grace. For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
Not because of your righteousness or the uprightness of your heart are you going in to possess their land, but because of the wickedness of these nations the Lord your God is driving them out from before you, and that he may confirm the word that the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob. "Know, therefore, that the Lord your God is not giving you this good land to possess because of your righteousness, for you are a stubborn people.
"Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came.
from your quote of 1 John 1:9 I understand you do indeed believe he (that old Nazi) committed sin? Otherwise, it wouldn't be applicable.
And do you happen to know if he already confessed it? In that case, you played the role of God and forgave him his sins?
There are at least two kinds of forgiveness
but many who can forgive. There is the forgiveness of "sin" in generic form but we need to determine who was wronged or disobeyed in order to know who has the rightful power to forgive the sin. There is also the forgiveness of debt. Again, who may forgive that depends on who is the owner of that debt. Those who believe in God are taught the difference. Those who don't believe in God cannot understand the difference and confuse the concepts of sin and debt.
"all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God"
21-But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
27-Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one.
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