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Resolved Question

Rip-my-hair-out-slow computer

by slow235comp / October 9, 2012 11:18 AM PDT

1.5ghz, 1g RAM, 80GB harddrive, Dell Optiplex gx240 desktop, XP SP3, IE8

It makes my blood boil, I sometimes lay down while web pages load. I didn't go to any shady websites like porn or anything, I

only click on ones Norton shows iare OK after a Google search. I fully reformatted and have like nothing installed. I ran

tons of scans and found no spyware or anything,

It was as slow a few months ago. I made a thread and found that no capacitors are leaking, fans are clean, it's not a

hardware problem and malware logs were clean and i ran about 5 of the best antispyware scans (adaware, spybot, windows

defenter, SAS, malwarebytes, etc) and a full Norton scan were all clean. We found it to be Constat Guard (free antivirus,

mostly ID protection free with Comcast I thought was needed to have Norton installed) installed along with Norton Security

Suite. I uninstalled Constant Guard, did a full XP reformat and it was faster for about 3 months. I reformatted again and

reinstalled XP and it got slow. I reformatted again and again and it's slow as hell.

All I have installed is flashplayer, updated gfx card driver, IE8, norton secutiy suite, google earth, and Windows XP

updates. It's not just slow for webpages, like loading add/remove programs list takes too long. I always delete cookies and

temp files. Compatability mode doesn't help loading pages.

norton requiremnts are:
•300 MHz or faster processor.
•256 MB of RAM.
•300 MB of available hard disk space

After the reformat that made it slow, I had to install an XP SP3 version intended for IT developers for multiple computer or

something like that it said. Now when you go to update windows after installing the CD, it gives you an error code saying

windows update won't work. They should just explain it doesn's support non-SP3 XP and link SP3 insted of giving a code. I

googled the error code, found many with the same proble and all different solutions, but all you need to do is download SP3

from windows (or sp1/2 first if the cd is just plain XP with no SP1). Windows says on the webpage and I called them that to

just go ahead and install the only SP3 they are offering, the 'IT developers installingon multiple third party computer, for

just one computer, a smaller better version is available' or something like that it says. So I install that then do all the

100+ mostly security updates and its slow. Other computers on my router are fine.

I don't wanna risk turning Norton off to see if it's the problem. We recently had a new Router installed from Comcast which

made the other computers faster, so it's not that. The other computers have about the same specs. I checked my internet wire

with a tester and all the individual wires and the ground wire are okay.


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Clarification Request
is Norton
by itsdigger / October 9, 2012 11:25 AM PDT

installed on the other computers ? I'd almost be willing to bet that it is Norton. Is it up to date?

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installed on the other computers ?
by slow235comp / October 9, 2012 12:29 PM PDT
In reply to: is Norton

Others have norton. One's xp sp3 but not the IT developer version. Other is Vsta.
My norton is up to date so are windows updates. Norton spec requirements are so low even for my only 1.5 ghz 1GB ram comp. It ran okay w/ norton before i formatted and installed the IT developer SP3 that windows says everywhere is just fine for a regular computer.

All Answers

Best Answer chosen by slow235comp

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NEW IDEA. That old hard drive.
by R. Proffitt Forum moderator / October 11, 2012 4:17 AM PDT

" 80GB harddrive"

That's very old. It's possible it's developed an issue so for a test run, install any new HDD and re-test.

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Precaution's good fear
by slow235comp / October 12, 2012 10:25 AM PDT

For the third time, or second if you thought my OP said I uninstalled Constant Guard, reformatted, then didn't install Norton without Constant Guard, it ran decent w/ Norton a few months ago.
Then again, I presume there's a vulnerable time after I format XP and it's bare SP2 without updates or anything. Sometimes I run scans right after that before using the PC, but found nothing.

Willy, you actually linked the IT developer XP SP3. Thanks for CNet's though.

Do i need to burn a bootable disc if I'm reformatting with an XP SP2 CD and not saving any current settings/files to reinstall?

"...Once everything has been and its up and running, OK check results."
Sorry, What's 'OK check results'? I Googled "OK check results" and wasn't sure.

Whenever I reformat, I'm pretty sure it's after installing all the XP updates, when I "restart to complete the installation", it freezes with a black screen. My monitor's menu (like if I press the menue button even if the PC's frozen) says 'no input' or something like that for a second. Alt+crtl+del doesn't let me shut down, so I hold the power button for a while, restart it again and am asked to try: Normal mode, Safe mode or Last configuration that worked (i chose), etc, which i read indicates a hard drive problem. But I think it might be my gfx driver cause only that update out of the 100+ always fails, then it fails again and again through auto updates, but eventually installs.

A different forum suggested chkdsk c: /r as administrator in CMD. My Administrator password wasn't blank/administrator/admin, and I read I can't run it as Admin without password cracking software/there is no Admin account, but I have Administrator rights on my user account.
I didn't use CMD, just used My Computer>C Drive>Properties>Tools>Error Checking: I checked "automatically fix file system errors" and "scan for and attempt recovery of bad sectors".
It took only 20 mins. It didn't stop to tell me what happened after, but I caught it at the end saying 'the volume is clean' for C drive.

Anyway, it's not faster. Maybe replacing heatsink compound or installing CNet's non-IT Developer SP3 on another 80 gig hard drive I have will help. Would Win 7 make my PC faster?

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About SP3.
by R. Proffitt Forum moderator / October 12, 2012 10:48 AM PDT
In reply to: Precaution's good fear

I don't think this is any issue with developer or not SP3. Forgive me for asking but what drove you to think there is any difference?

-> Nod to heatsink compound. Any machine over 5 years gets that and a good cleaning. A decent tech knows that. I avoided here because the symptoms are elsewhere. Plus you have norton and other comments.

Windows 7 will not make a machine faster.

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4 years ago
by itsdigger / October 12, 2012 11:27 AM PDT
In reply to: Precaution's good fear

I purchased a new pretty high end Toshiba laptop and I installed Norton 360. I also had Comcast high speed internet that also had Constant Guard . You talk about SLOW !!! I was on the phone chewing out Comcast for the crappy service I was receiving from them ! well after day's of mud slinging they sent someone to check out the cable connections and they were right on, no issues there. I ended up getting rid of the Constant Guard and the computer Still Dragged ON !!!Finally I got rid of Norton ( I had to use Norton's own uninstaller tool) and this computer "Took Off Like A Jet"! Like a new computer should. Since than I use Avast Free with no problems and enjoy a High Speed Computer........Digger

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by slow235comp / October 12, 2012 2:21 PM PDT
In reply to: 4 years ago

Yeah, Comcast kinda makes it seem like we must dload constant guard to get Norton.
I thought the IT developer version was wrong cause Willy^ suggested so and also a different forum did.Plus it was faster before the 1st time i used the IT pro version.

I'll replace the heatsink compound and replace Norton w/ a free AV like Avast. I'm skeptical about switching thinking Norton's so slow's good. It's kept me clean.

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Let us know
by itsdigger / October 12, 2012 5:26 PM PDT
In reply to: re

how it turns out , ....Digger

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Parting thoughts...
by Willy / October 12, 2012 10:46 PM PDT
In reply to: re

I have SP3 and MS does offer that besides using whatever they have to d/l, that you can use a friend's versions if they d/l'ed prior to any major changes. One reason to move away from XP is support is going to be gone. The link I posted was general info, since I didn't follow through on what it linked to, as in some network version. Though, don't confuse what MS provides from it's sources, because besides network, the technet side should have pointed to a listing of various XP versions at least it did before. I suppose this all changed as XP will find less support. So, if you get the version you want, better save and burn to maintain XP later. Tne side note I got from the website I posted is that any released "updates" will need SP3 in order to get them.

You can as I suggested get SP3 from other sources, various online filebase websites you trust. If push comes to shove, maybe order the CD from MS.

From the MS d/l link:

You can download the stand-alone Windows XP SP3 package from the following Microsoft Download Center page. Although this page says that the installation package is intended for IT professionals and developers, you can safely download and install this package.

So, it should work. I can't recall what SP3 version I have but it's always worked for me. Further, SP patches had some issues with certain PC setups, so don't discount all that. AMD cpus for one and some video setups caused headaches, until you load their patches to better install SP3. Whether they relate to you or not, problems did exist long ago.

tada -----Willy Happy

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by slow235comp / October 29, 2012 9:29 AM PDT
In reply to: Parting thoughts...

I have a better computer now but I want to find what's wrong with this one. Thanks for all your help so far.

In order, I:

checked capacitors, inside, etc. Everything seems fine and dust-free.

Drivermax found 12 outdated drivers. I updated bridge-to-bridge, mouse, human interface, and I forgot the other. I didn't get to update all 12 drivers because I was eventually forced to reformat and Drivermax only allows 2 a day for free. All were only outdated a few months and ancient anyway.

I tried Dell's online full diagnosis but kept getting 'The application failed to initializse properly'.

I ran Dell's driver update and downloaded 51 updates. All were 'Optional' except Smart Reader Keyboard was 'reccomended'. None installed. It gave me files I didn't know what to do with. I didn't feel the need to learn how to install all those optional ancient updates or risk messing anything up so I left them in a folder.

I don't have Diagnosis, PSA, cPSA or anything in BIOS for a built-in boot diagnosis.

I ran 2 CPU temperature programs to see how bad new heatsink compound paste is needed. Bafflingly both wouldn't show CPU temp. One said HDD was 39C which I read is okay. My BIOS doesn't show temps.

I ran PC Pitstop PC Matic online scan + tune up. It optimized 16 things like internet speed settings, disabled GoogleUpdateTaskMachineCore, updated some drivers, defragged, and deleted junk files.

I ran Could have paid to fix 90% of 2789 problems were disk optimizer category, the rest were in privacy protector, system cleaner, registry cleaner, and registry optimizer categories.

Everything ^ was either found suggested on forums or flagged as safe and reliable by Norton. The computer got worse.

I removed an unknown program in add/remove. I forgot the name. It got installed somewhere along doing everthing I listed but i'm pretty sure I never OKayed to install anything other than what I listed. It warned that the internet might not work right if removed. My PCI internet jack card has it's own program and diagnosis, it wasn't named anything in relation to that card so I deleted it. Next, like nothing worked. My quicklaunches disapeared and I couldn't restore them, I couldn't open anything from MyRecentDocuments, but I could find files and open them. I couldn't open IE with any method. The diagnosis for my PCI internet jack said working, receiving and sending.

Next, I changed Hard drives to a different one of the same model and fully reformatted MS's IT Developer XP SP3. I always delete the previous partition first, which I read might matter. When trying to Boot from CD to install Windows, the new (but old) HDD kept freezing at 'initializing MBA'. I changed the little pin location for Master/Slave/CS etc from Master to CS and got Windows to install. There's only one harddrive though, nothing's chained.
The computer was worse with that HDD than the previous one which i'm back on now, which, again somehow passed it's manufacturer's online test.

So, I switched back to the original HDD/better of the two and reformatted XP to it. I did Windows Update and installed Norton. Somehow, this HDD's worse than before I switched it. It was basically an indentical set-up of bare minimum but everything froze up etc worse just a few days later.

I tried Dell's online full diagnostics again and got "the application failed to initializse properly" even if saving the .exe instead of running it etc. The individual component tests gave the same error.

I have a Dell Drivers and Resource CD that says it's for a Dell Dimension which this computer isn't. However, it showed all of my drivers and seemed to work for it's diagnostics boot CD section. I booted from CD, it said 'starting Windows 98' and did a 2 hour diagnosis reporting 6 errors: DE CDROM 3 failed confidence, read, and seek "incompatable CD for testing" and Diskette drive B failed read, write, and seek tests "the device did not respond in a fixed time to an access attempt".

I guess the Registy's fine since I keep reformatting, so I didn't run any Registry check programs.

I couldn't get freeisoburner, ISO Recorder, or ImgBurn to burn an ISO for Ultimate Boot CD. UBCD is tons of diagnostics, AV, etc freewares on a boot CD that compares a system to the known good system files on a XP/whatever formatting disk/flash drive/etc. I tried numerous new CDs and drives. Burning CDs always seemed to work. I built UBCD ISO with another system. I fully reformatted this computer yet again then ran Ultimate Boot CD without installing SP3 or anything, just to keep it very clean for the UBCD tests.

In UBCD I did/tried in order:
Memtest86+ v4.10: passed
HD Tune 2.55 Hard Disk Utility Error Scan: Clean/no damaged blocks. Said temp 39C then 50C.
Quickbench:'completed successfully!'
RoadKill's Disk Wipe: 1 pass, '16129 errors erased'
Disk Check UP: 60C HD temp warning
Prime95 Torture Test (pushes hardware to limits as test): Passed 8 tests for 3 hours.
CPU Bench: 'can't detect video card'
Window UPdate List: Won't open
WinCupid: obsolete test/won't open
WinAudit: won't open
Unknown Devices: obsolete test/won't open
System Info For Windows: won't open
Key Finder: won't open
Joshua's Key Finder: won't open
HW Monitor: 37C HD temp
CPU-z Latency Test: won't open
Cool Mon: won't open
H2test: didn't work
EMSA Diskcheck 1.077: 'bad file name or number' error
Check Flash Memory: 'not formatted' error
Bart Stuff Test v5.1.4: 'not a recognised file system'
Drive Eraser: 'out of memory' error
Eraser: won't open
RoadKill's Disk Wipe version 1.2: again with 3 passes

Next, I did another full XP format, didn't install anything and went straight for DBAN Derik's Boot and Nuke HDD wiper. I did the 7 pass Department of Defence-worthy write everything as 1's wipe. Had to make the DBAN .iso CD with other system, DBAN wasn't on UBCD but can/should be.

After the DBAN wipe, I formatted XP again. At this point, it was worse than ever.
Restarting took 10 minutes. Flash wouldn't install,but later poped up as a suggestion to download while at tomshardware, and it worked. but still was suggested on all sites using it.

Windows update worked first try, then it didn't. I installed IT developer SP3 from WIndows then ran Update and downloaded many updates, restarted and tried Update again because it always misses some after the first run. It told me I needed SP3 to use Update as if I didn't install it.
suggest these methods that didn't work:
Tried downloading the latest version of the Windows Update Agent, got error that it's not supported on my x86 OS.
Auto updates were on, I tried their cmd command to check for updates, it said it wasn't a recognized command.
Tried their "fix it for me" app and got an error installing it. Googled the error code 2755. There are many ways/work arounds to fix 2755, but I wanted to make sure I didn't screw anything up and then make the system less bare so it's easier to find the problem(s) to blame, so I reformatted yet again hoping not to get errors next time.

So, I reformatted with a different but still old SP2 CD. I ran it for a day with no AV at all or Service pack/windows updates and it was slow as usual, so it's not Norton. Then, I reformatted again in case I picked up anything while on a bare system.

This is where I'm at now. Win Update works. I figured I have to disable Norton to install Flash. Dell's online full diagnosis still says 'The application failed to initializse properly'.
However, music production software still runs as good as years ago when the internet and windows explorer werern't nearly as slow. About the same for video games too.

The same PC with XP and Norton (norton 2003, not the current Security Suite I'm running) is on eBay and says "The computer boots quickly and is perfect for browsing the internet and other tasks". There are others with XP but no info about speed.

Maybe the XP CDs I format with got screwed up/scratched? I've had errors when formatting that a file was missing once or twice in the past, so I un-did the whole format, started again, and it installed with no errors but the PC was still slow.The erros are hit or miss amongst 4 CDs of XP SP0, SP1, or SP2.

Someone suggested a new CMOS battery.

I Googled variations of: diagnostics diagnose computer hardware full free etc.
I found the following which I might run but am pretty sure I'll end up forced to reformat from worsening after a few:
RadarSync PC Updater 2012
Dr. Hardware
BurnInTest Professional

Any suggestions? Thank you.

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Nice findings.
by R. Proffitt Forum moderator / October 29, 2012 9:35 AM PDT
In reply to: stumped?

But did you replace the parts that flunked?

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since your doing
by itsdigger / October 29, 2012 11:07 AM PDT
In reply to: stumped?

all of this formatting anyway, why not try installing a linux os and see how that runs. Just a thought ....Digger

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I'm probably going to get chewed out here but ....
by watchcap / October 31, 2012 2:09 AM PDT
In reply to: stumped?

Slow235, I read all of your procedures above, and you sound so much like I did a few years ago I just have to go along with the 'wipe and re-boot' advisors ..... My son had heard days of explanations from me .... and a 'thing' that happens is that while we try to fix or speed up our comps, we start as well to learn new procedures, new 'tech-talk', new 'clever' tricks that help a bit here, hurt a bit there until we are sure that the ONE thing we do not need to do ..... turns out to be the EXACT thing we SHOULD do in the end ... wipe the whole computer, reboot from factory disk, BUY BUY BUY an external usb drive like a WD and BUY Acronis 2011 or 2012 (avoid the new buggy 2013) ..... Rebuild the whole computer from the factory disks .... SAVE to Acronis and external drive ... even going so far as saving the whole computer sector by sector but not really necessary ..... and save your whole computer every other day or so if your a paranoid like I am .... My laptop takes less than 30 minutes to save my whole operating system and files with Acronis by image .... Further your joy by test retrieves if your as paranoid as I .... But truly, believe me when I say you will spend hours and hours to find the speed problems when you could have wiped, redisked, and externally saved in less than 4 hours over all this time spent trying to find one specific problem that is causing this ...

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thanks for reading that.
by slow235comp / November 1, 2012 3:28 PM PDT

I'm going to write it off as something like this:
It doesn't make sense for me to spend money and/or more effort trying to diagnose this computer just to feel the problem didn't win.
New heatsink and a CMOS battery might make it faster. A windows update(s) in recent months might have made it slower. The XP CDs might be damaged. There might be a wire or something inside I can't see that's damaged.

"But did you replace the parts that flunked?"
I don't see what flunked. Anything like the HD and HD temp that programs that showed had errors, there were like 4X more other programs that said they were fine. A lot of the other tests baffingly wouldn't run.
If you're refering to: "DE CDROM 3 failed confidence, read, and seek "incompatable CD for testing" and Diskette drive B failed read, write, and seek tests "the device did not respond in a fixed time to an access attempt", I take it that means the CD and floppy drives have problems which is obsolete to system slowness.

Sorry, i don't understand: "But truly, believe me when I say you will spend hours and hours to find the speed problems when you could have wiped, redisked, and externally saved in less than 4 hours over all this time spent trying to find one specific problem that is causing this ..."
The factory disk is the windows XP formatting CD, yeah? You're basically saying create images of the system to fall back on, but what good is that if I can't get it up to speed?

thanks for all the help

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I read the outputs you gave
by R. Proffitt Forum moderator / November 2, 2012 12:57 AM PDT

And the HDD looked like it failed. Maybe you are not into repairing PCs but at the office we have a few spare parts and would have changed that HDD.

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thanks all
by slow235comp / November 3, 2012 4:38 PM PDT
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by slow235comp / November 4, 2012 11:13 AM PST
In reply to: thanks all
same thread, fidderent forum, helped too if anyone's actually interested/helped by it
fwiw the 'answer' reply was a mistake, i thought it would just say 'solved' or something in the thread title, and i dunno how it jumbled up the threead and chose a random reply as the answer.
anyway, thanks again all. take care.
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please help
by slow235comp / November 6, 2012 6:55 AM PST
In reply to: conclusion

My 'new' PC's way worse than the other.You can kind of skip the whole thread if you haven't read it and start here.

It's a Sony Vaio PCV-RX651 80G HD, 256MB ram, 1.72ghz running XP.

The previous owner left XP SP2 on it. I basically just went to add/remove and saw tons of bells and whistles, tool bars, etc, stress tested explorer and IE, and it ran decent, like 10x better than the other PC I made this thread about. Of course I wanted to fully reformat it to get the most performance out of it though.

Next, I did 14 passes with DBAN with the computer case open and a fan on the components and left it for a day untill it fininshed. Once wiped, I turned it off for an hour before formatting XP. Forums say DBAN can't damage hardware though.

The XP CDs I install from are sort of unknown burnt copies but legal with licenses and keys etc, but I was told they're just universal XP CDs. Again, as already said in this thread, I've had them say something like "file not found. Retry?" I hit Retry, and it continues. I had no errors like that from all the formats in this thread including this one though.

It's basically uselessly slow. The other PC I can barely put up with is DBAN'd and ready for recycling unless I fully reformat and update to SP3 and Update, so please pardon un-researched questions.

So I updated this computer from Windows SP1 to SP3 and did Windows Update hoping that would make it faster, but it didn't. It was rediculously slow right after the XP install.

Could the XP CDs I have be damaged resulting in a slow OS even if no errors were displayed? Damaged in a way that damages hardware too?
I checked online for XP OS CDs to buy to see if it's the CDs I used that are the problem. I thought an XP OS CD was an XP OS CD, but found specific brand and model ones with drivers for that machine. I guess those are obsolete compared to a plain/universal XP OS CD and going to the manufacturer's website to downlaod even more recent drivers, no? Though, again, the tons of updates I got for the other PC I made this thread about were all 'optional' except for a keyboard one.

Do you suggest I do anything different than this link? Can I just go to the downloads site right after windows installs instead of burning

drivers to a CD?

Drivers for my PC link: Suggestions? Looks like the important ones in the other link are missing from what they offer me.

I installed the fan one and it stopped running so loud. The other I tried said I 'need SP1 installed. please DL it from link' and I have sP3.

Since I don't have any VAIO CD, do I need to get one even if I don't want the VAIO programs? Same with burning a Sony Shared Library install

CD? Those programs seem like things I don't even need/can just download something similar if I do. I'm basically fine with just plain windows and adobe flash and reader.

Maybe I can save the PC I made this thread about too.

f6 to instlall RAID driver?

Thank you.

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I don't wanna risk turning Norton off to see if it's the pro
by R. Proffitt Forum moderator / October 10, 2012 1:51 AM PDT

"I don't wanna risk turning Norton off to see if it's the problem."

Why is that risky? Are you going to bad sites and using crack software?

In the meantime are you also saying no to simple 2 minute no-reboot ideas? Link follows.

If you are not going to try ideas, maybe you will have to reinstall it all.

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no help
by slow235comp / October 10, 2012 12:53 PM PDT

How do I know there's not a virus/hack/whatever waiting for me to disable Norton to activate? If it's Norton,
how come their spec requirements are so low, and I ran fine with Norton a few months ago?

The quick fix script on top of that page didn't work.

It said two secondary and one primary IDE channels were changed from PIO to DMA and to 'reboot now to reset and redetect the DMA status".
I checked device manager and only one still said PIO, the others were ULTRA DMA Mode 2 and ULTRA DMA Mode 5. I manually changed the PIO one to 'DMA if available' as shown on an tutorial from Googling: PIO DMA, rebooted and it stayed at DMA but I don't notice a faster PC.

I ran the quick fix script again, got the same message that 3 were changed, rebooted, and it changed one back to PIO that i changed back to DMA yet again.

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Sadly it's fear that can't be helped.
by R. Proffitt Forum moderator / October 10, 2012 2:18 PM PDT
In reply to: no help

If folk are that fearful I think they need to reconsider using Windows PCs. Grif has some excellent advice about how to scan the PC at the following link but once in a while you find an owner that is overcome by fear of their PC and a possible infection waiting for them to test turning it off.

Grif's link and great advice is at;msg5099421


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From scratch...
by Willy / October 10, 2012 2:06 PM PDT

Well, you reformatted and all and done this several times and the problem comes back. Allow me to say, you have a Dell GX240, that's a slow dog compared to what out there now. That's it no more about that Dell.

When I find continuous problems, it maybe a h/w issue that simply hasn't been found yet or some s/w glitch that gets back some how. Since, you did a reload and it lasted 3mos. that suggest that to me. Somewhere it repeated some bad behavior and stared downhill. What I would do is totally wipe clean the HD, period. However before doing that, a AV scan of *ALL* you're removable media just in case. Make sure the AV is updated and ready and allow to test the removable media and act accordily. Next, if you find nothing, then proceed to a rebuild and reload.

Wipe clean the HD using DBAN or KILLDISK s/w for that prupose. Burn a bootable disc and use it, google for the file.

Once done, shutdown and remove the cpu heatsink. Clean the cpu surface top and re-apply heatsink compound properly. Then re-attach the heatsink and start work again. reload the OS, etc. and then update the OS and all pgms. and what have you. Do no work until its complete, 100%, savvy.

I suggest you get the proper XP-SP3 update patch, obviously don't get the network version. Other filebase websites offer SP3, like CNET's own download:

Once everything has been and its up and running, OK check results. if it seems to work OK as in speed wise, then take note when it starts to falter. If it does much later then again some action had been taken. Understand more latter released updates and pgms. still XP based aren't the greatest anymore, they maybe in order to be updated so laden themselves they slow down the PC. You may want to check the processes using the "task manager" aspect to review what's going on in the backgrd..

tada -----Willy Happy

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If this person
by itsdigger / October 11, 2012 1:39 AM PDT
In reply to: From scratch...

were going to wipe the HD again anyway, why wouldn't he/ she try disabling the AV first ? Confused ......Digger

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