Speakeasy

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Related to home security

by Steven Haninger / January 2, 2013 8:05 PM PST

It's been my feeling that how one secures their home is their choice up to the point where that choice becomes a danger to those around them. One does not rig a shotgun at the front door to take care of would be intruders. I also feel that announcing how one's home is secured is a decision they get to make. Three common types of security would be an animal, a weapon, and an electronic system...or combination of such. I'm not in favor of posting signs about how I secure my home but there are at least two schools of thought about this. One is that posting a sign is, itself, a deterrent to criminals. My thinking is that it could work for or against you. Posting a sign might deter the amateur crook but it also might give the professional just what he needs to breach your system. To make public my method of security should be my choice only. Comments?

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I'd go with scary tactics, not harmful
by James Denison / January 2, 2013 11:40 PM PST

and a camera or two which could upload real time to an online server, so even if the home equipment is destroyed and any copies taken by whomever broke in, there'd still be a copy online they couldn't access. Such cameras would need to be in more public areas such as living room, none in bedrooms.

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I'm thinking more on the line of advertising your method
by Steven Haninger / January 3, 2013 1:21 AM PST

Homes in my neighborhood advertise the name of their security systems by placing a sign by their front entrances. This replaces the old "Beware of Dog" signs I've also seen. I'd think that a professional crook would be able to learn about the various systems and how to get around them. I'd almost think it better to not place a sign but let the crook think your home is unguarded. Oh...I've also seen ads for dummy cameras. An amateur won't know one from the other but a pro just might.

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Most common burglars.....
by Josh K / January 3, 2013 1:43 AM PST

......will pass up a house that they know has a security system. They're looking for the easiest home to break into. Only someone targeting a specific home would go to the trouble to try to get around a security system.

Too much security, or the illusion of it (like those fake cameras) might make some think there must be something awfully good inside your house or you wouldn't be going to such lengths to secure it. That might actually attract pros.

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If I may paraphrase: Most common school shooters...
by MarkatNite / January 22, 2013 9:51 AM PST

...will pass up a school that they know has security (i.e. armed guards). They're looking for the easiest school to kill the most people. Only someone targeting a specific school would go to the trouble to try to get around armed security guards.

As to "too much security ... might make some think there must be something awfully good inside", there is something awfully good inside, our children.

http://jpfo.org/filegen-n-z/school.htm

Mark

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Nonsense
by Josh K / January 22, 2013 9:52 PM PST

There was armed security at Columbine, and VA Tech has its own (armed) police force. There were armed patrons in the theater in Aurora. Gabby Giffords had armed security around her, none of whom could get off a clean shot at Loughner. Most mass shooters have no intention of surviving their attacks. Whether they die by their own hands or are shot down by the police is secondary. I seriously doubt that a person that deranged is scoping out targets based on whether there might be someone there with a gun.

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Nonsense, indeed.
by MarkatNite / January 23, 2013 11:01 PM PST
In reply to: Nonsense

Columbine is not a good example:

1) the guard was outside (on lunch break).
2) the guard followed what was SOP at the time and secured the perimeter.
3) despite both of the above, the guard was able to distract at least one of the shooters and save at least one life.

VA Tech is not a good example:

1) the campus is much larger than most, if not all, grade school and/or high school campuses.
2) most, if not all, of the students at VA Tech are legally adults and therefor responsible for their own protection--although, another topic I've railed about in the past is the inherent unfairness of being legally an adult but not having all the Rights and privileges thereof--and none of them are required to be there by the government.
3) the school's actions during the incident were roundly criticized.

Aurora is not a good example:

(First, source, please.)

1) armed patrons are not the same as armed guards unless it was public knowledge beforehand that they were going to be there, and even then, the patrons only have a duty to protect themselves (and their loved ones), not others/strangers.

Gabby Giffords is not a good example:

(First, again, source, please.)

1) her situation--an individual who is a politician in an open area--bears no resemblance to school.
2) her attacker is still alive, and so by your own criteria, does not fit the profile.

Mark

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If we put armed guards in schools.....
by Josh K / January 23, 2013 11:52 PM PST
In reply to: Nonsense, indeed.

.....it stands to reason that they will also need to take a lunch break and occasionally use the bathroom. Sounds to me like you're making the case that an armed guard in a school may create more of a perception of security than the reality of it.

The NRA says that if there was armed security in schools, these things wouldn't happen. VA Tech shows otherwise, regardless of the excuses you tried to make for it.

Re: Aurora -- interestingly, that theater did employ armed security guards, but as it happened none were on duty that night, though typically they would have been. That means that if James Holmes had been planning his acts and considering the possibility of encountering an armed security guard, he probably would have picked another theater. As far as he knew, there was supposed to be armed security that night.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/29/aurora-shooting-theater-lacked-security_n_1717480.html

I may have been wrong about there being armed patrons inside the theater. According to this same article, theater policy prohibits weapons.

That Loughner was subdued before he could kill himself doesn't change anything, nor does your nitpicking about the fact that the Giffords shooting took place outdoors.

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The NRA said
by James Denison / January 24, 2013 12:48 AM PST

Josh = "The NRA says that if there was armed security in schools, these things wouldn't happen."

I would really like to see where they claimed such things wouldn't ever happen just because armed guards were nearby. How many armed people were around Reagan when he was shot?

As for the Loughner-Giffords matter, that still may be more of an in house Jewish matter according to Jewish Journal and David Duke both, no doubt a rare occasion when both would agree on something.

"Serving a community of 600,000, The Jewish Journal of Greater Los Angeles is the largest Jewish weekly outside New York City."

"An acquaintance of Jared Lee Loughner, the accused gunman in the
shooting of U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords, says his mother is Jewish.

Bryce Tierney, a friend of Loughner from high school, told Mother
Jones magazine that the alleged gunman posted "Mein Kampf" as a
"favorite book" on a social media site in part to provoke his mother,
who Tierney says is Jewish.

Amy Loughner's maiden name is Totman, according to Arizona public records, and she married Randy Loughner in 1986. "


Although this other Jewish Journal writer denies it was a Jewish thing, but more in agreement with what I believe, Loughner is just crazy.

As of August 2012, the death penalty has been taken off the table.

DD="Jared Loughner's mother's maiden name is Amanda Totman. Another relative in Jared's lineage is named Bleifuss. A Jewish surname database
lists the name Totman as Jewish, the name Lofner (a homonym for
Loughner) as Jewish, and the name Beifuss (pretty darn closes to
Bleifuss) as Jewish. (And there's a Jewish journalist named Joel
Bleifuss.) Given the fact that we're batting 1000 for Jewish names and
Jared's friend, Bryce Tierny says that Jared Loughner's mother is
Jewish, you'd think that would be enough for most people."


Oh, still want to know where you got that "quote" from the NRA.

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If we put armed guards (plural) in each school...
by MarkatNite / January 25, 2013 3:01 PM PST

...they can cover for each other when they go on break. But that's really incidental. Note that I had "(on lunch break)" in parentheses. The main point was that the guard (singular) was outside while the shooters were inside. 1) Obviously this situation lessened the guard's effectiveness, as opposed to if he had been inside. (i.e. eating lunch in the cafeteria with the students, as he sometimes did.) 2) This also led to him establishing a perimeter (which was SOP at the time) instead of proactively engaging the shooters (which is SOP now).

>"an armed guard in a school may create more of a perception of security than the reality of it."

Even if that is the case, if the perception of security is created in the minds of the would-be perpetrators, it may cause them to seek other "softer" targets. And even if it doesn't, how is that any worse than the situation we have now?

>"The NRA says that if there was armed security in schools, these things wouldn't happen"

Again, I don't speak for the NRA. Although I have been supporting guarding our children at least as well as we guard our money ever since Columbine. Unfortunately, the board only goes back to 2004:

http://forums.cnet.com/7726-6130_102-416884.html?tag=posts;msg416884

Incidentally, while I was searching, I came across the following post of mine from 2006 which was a reply to one of your old posts:

http://forums.cnet.com/7726-6130_102-2227224.html?tag=posts;msg2227224

But getting back to the main point, note that, even though we guard our banks, that doesn't mean that bank robberies never happen. And even though bank robberies do happen, no one says that means we should not guard our banks at all.

>"VA Tech shows otherwise, regardless of the excuses you tried to make for it."

What you call "excuses", I call facts. You're free to refute them, if you can.

1) It's a fact that, all else being equal, a larger area is more difficult to secure than a smaller area.
2) It's a fact that most of the students at VA Tech are legally adults and are therefore responsible for their own protection. It's a fact that none of them are required to be there by the government. It's a fact that neither is true for most grade school and/or high school students.
3) It's a fact that the school's actions during the incident were roundly criticized.

>"that theater did employ armed security guards, but as it happened none were on duty that night, though typically they would have been."

That's incorrect according to the link you provided:

"Cinemark provided off-duty police guards at the Aurora theater on busy Friday and Saturday nights. As for other nights of the week, theater operators decide on a case-by-case basis whether to hire security"

So the rest of your assertions:

"That means that if James Holmes had been planning his acts and considering the possibility of encountering an armed security guard, he probably would have picked another theater. As far as he knew, there was supposed to be armed security that night."

are based on a false assumption. However, I would like to note the following paragraph from the article you linked to:

"Larry Lowak, whose son Brent was among the wounded, said security personnel on the scene possibly could have stopped the gunman"

>"I may have been wrong about there being armed patrons inside the theater. According to this same article, theater policy prohibits weapons."

1) Thank you for acknowledging your mistake re: there being armed patrons in the theater.

2) I would again note how "gun free zones" (aka "victim disarmament zones" aka "sitting duck zones") do not prevent criminals--who, by definition break laws, and in most of these cases, multiple laws up to and including mass murder, much less theater policies {oh, scary. NOT!}--from possessing guns therein.

>"Loughner was subdued before he could kill himself"

Yet again, source, please. Not that he was subdued, but that he would have killed himself at the time if he hadn't been subdued. Also, again, source, please, for your previous assertion that "Gabby Giffords had armed security around her" at the time of the attack.

>"nor does your nitpicking about the fact that the Giffords shooting took place outdoors."

Similar to what I said above, what you call "nitpicking", I call facts. You're free to refute them, if you can.

1) It's a fact that, all else being equal, an open area is more difficult to secure than an enclosed area.
2) It's a fact that her attacker is still alive and therefore, unless you can provide evidence that he would have killed himself at the time, by your own criteria, he does not fit the profile.

Mark

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updated link. "Innocents Betrayed"
by James Denison / January 25, 2013 8:44 PM PST
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In addition
by TONI H / January 24, 2013 12:16 AM PST
In reply to: Nonsense, indeed.

According to news stories I've seen regarding Aurora, there were four or five OTHER movie houses in that general area that he could have picked; however, every one but the one he went into had signs up saying that there were actually armed guards at those theaters.

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So if you put "armed guards signs" up
by JP Bill / January 25, 2013 11:04 PM PST
In reply to: In addition

People that want to do something bad, stay away

And if they publish where people have weapons...they have no fear and try and steal them.

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I can't believe they really care
by Steven Haninger / January 22, 2013 10:00 PM PST

I'm convinced that most, if not all, want their own lives to end at the scene of carnage. Once they are in the building and pulling the trigger, the die has been cast. Whether or not armed guards are there at the outset probably does not matter. They might well think it better to take a bullet from someone else than face the moment of needing to do it themselves. These folks may be cold and calculating but they are not sane.

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I can believe they really care.
by MarkatNite / January 23, 2013 11:07 PM PST

If they don't care, why aren't there more mass shootings at places where the shooters know they will face an armed response? e.g. police stations.

Mark

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I agree about the presence of armed guards,
by drpruner / January 24, 2013 2:34 AM PST

But I doubt it's an acceptable solution, even partly.

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Malcolm X told Alex Haley that he always
by drpruner / January 24, 2013 2:37 AM PST

passed up any house that seemed ready for him and Shorty. Reason: 'The one next door will be a milk run.'

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Appearance of security.
by drpruner / January 24, 2013 2:45 AM PST

Malcolm X told Alex Haley that he and Shorty would pass up any house that seemed ready. Reason: 'The next one was always a milk run.'

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Don't use a sign
by James Denison / January 3, 2013 2:03 AM PST

but could have an inside alarm going off, with a message the police have been contacted and THEIR cameras are recording. It might not be true, but who wants to stick around to find out? It also doesn't cause a false alarm to police, it doesn't upset the neighbors like an outside alarm, and you can have internet contact sent to your phone (Verizon has a whole system for that now) so you can check online camera captured images and see if you need to call the police to go to your house.

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And sometimes you add smart switches
by Roger NC / January 3, 2013 7:39 AM PST
In reply to: Don't use a sign

so if the alarm goes off, every light inside and outside the house snap on.

Anything that may draw public good but in rural cases often not close enough neigbors for that to help as much.

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stickers
by drpruner / January 24, 2013 2:41 AM PST

I agree about the pro's foreknowledge. One solution: put up a Radio Shack sticker when you have another system installed. Better IMO: a dog. (See my Malcolm X comment, below.)
I had a dummy camera over my front door for a while. I disconnected the "pan" function- more realistic, and longer battery life for the LED) and ran a piece of coax up into the overhead of the porch. No burglaries, so it worked. (Kept the elephants away, too.)

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I believe I read once that the shotgun thing
by drpruner / January 8, 2013 7:29 AM PST

gets the homeowner a homicide charge in most jurisdicitons.
Radio Shack used to sell the window stickers for their security systems as a separate purchase. My take on advertising any system one installs is it's a help for a knowledgeable burglar or for a rogue from that company.
My sign seems to work well: Beware of Doug.

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(NT) think all booby traps are illegal
by Roger NC / January 8, 2013 8:29 AM PST
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I think you're right, but I had in mind
by drpruner / January 20, 2013 4:58 AM PST

something cross-jurisdictional and involving a death. Any booby trap can kill, of course.
Onus is on the trapper.
Reminds me of the guy in my Census territory. He was in the boonies, had an old mobile home, an American flag, a fence of used tires all around, alleged to have booby traps, and a bad reputation. Turns out the rep was from people who didn't know him, the tires were to forestall burglars in an isolated area, and the booby traps may not have existed. (I was told that, if I went in, I shouldn't do him a favor by, say, picking up a bicycle lying on its side- might make a harmless bang.) Anyway, he turned out to have his legal address in CO, so he wasn't mine anyway, and all the actual neighbors said he was Mr. Helpful when he was around. He was a PTSD vet, they say.

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A tip.......
by TONI H / January 8, 2013 7:14 PM PST

Put your car keys beside your bed at night.

Tell your spouse, your children, your neighbors, your parents, your Dr's office, the check-out girl at the market, everyone you run across. Put your car keys beside your bed at night.

If you h...ear a noise outside your home or someone trying to get in your house, just press the panic button for your car. The alarm will be set off, and the horn will continue to sound until either you turn it off or the car battery dies.

This tip came from a neighborhood watch coordinator. Next time you come home for the night and you start to put your keys away, think of this: It's a security alarm system that you probably already have and requires no installation. Test it. It will go off from most everywhere inside your house and will keep honking until your battery runs down or until you reset it with the button on the key fob chain. It works if you park in your driveway or garage.

If your car alarm goes off when someone is trying to break into your house, odds are the burglar/rapist won't stick around. After a few seconds, all the neighbors will be looking out their windows to see who is out there and sure enough the criminal won't want that. And remember to carry your keys while walking to your car in a parking lot. The alarm can work the same way there. This is something that should really be shared with everyone. Maybe it could save a life or a sexual abuse crime.

P.S. I am sending this to everyone I know because I think it is fantastic. Would also be useful for any emergency, such as a heart attack, where you can't reach a phone. My Mom has suggested to my Dad that he carry his car keys with him in case he falls outside and she doesn't hear him. He can activate the car alarm and then she'll know there's a problem.See More

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also
by James Denison / January 8, 2013 9:10 PM PST
In reply to: A tip.......

good to find your car in a large parking area if you forgot exactly where it's parked.

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Probably a good idea if you live in a suburban/rural setting
by Josh K / January 8, 2013 11:24 PM PST
In reply to: A tip.......

Here in the city car alarms are just another annoying noise. Most people ignore them unless they refuse to stop, in which case the most likely reaction could be an "unfortunate accident" befalling the offending car. Wink

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Even then Josh, while it might take a few minutes
by Roger NC / January 9, 2013 6:42 AM PST

your nearest neigbors will probably look out.

Maybe the boldest thugs won't react to the alarm, but then they mug people right in front of a crowd.

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Willy the Impaler
by Willy / January 13, 2013 11:30 AM PST

I guess heads on stakes or rotting bodies wouldn't do the trick. I'm getting tried having to refuel the drone all the time. I would have though the barbed wire was a give-away and assorted car junks in the frt. yard. What, no "no mans land sign". JWs, please follow the markers. Amateurs need not apply. That darn Fed. Ex. guy gets by all the time. -----Willy password. please Wink

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Folks, I gotta tell you,
by drpruner / January 24, 2013 3:40 AM PST

I have it on Good Authority that it willl not end; it will get worse; man can't stop it.

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