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by crowsfoot / December 8, 2012 12:25 PM PST

As the universe expands and cools, isn't it logical that there will be increasing areas that are super super super cold? So cold that they create a Bose-Einstein condensate?

If we can do it in lab, won't it occure naturaturaly out there? The speed of light is slowed down many thousands of times. Isn't this missreading of what we see, exactly what dark energy would look like?

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(NT) ZOOOMMMMMMM (over my head)
by Roger NC / December 8, 2012 11:05 PM PST
In reply to: Physics
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(NT) That makes me feel better.....................I'm not alone.
by JP Bill / December 8, 2012 11:16 PM PST
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Unanswered questions are good.
by crowsfoot / December 11, 2012 5:47 AM PST

Something to chew on.
It's when people sell answers for profit or privilege, that we seem to get into trouble.

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by Willy / December 9, 2012 2:44 AM PST
In reply to: Physics

While you may speculate that, it boils down that the universe tries to keep or rather it becomes a steady state. The idea is behind isotopic(sp) maybe another word, but overall it evens out and the CBM or "cosmic background microwaves" show this. Which is why the noise we hear on radio is all over the spectrum, excluding the strong signal of the actual broadcast. That noise is always there and in every direction possible in the universe. It can get only so cold and so hot, though these are in flux, the average remains the same in open space at 2.73Kelvin. Thus, there isn't any "supercold" unless you count the minor difference as I understand very minor, thus an average "ambient temp." of open space. Otherwise when we make on earth an absolute zero temp. being reached, we would have your Bose-Einstein popping up and remain active. But, it doesn't happen naturally as the average temp. is above that thus only in the lab. All that cosmic radiation simply heats up the universe to an average, however it is speculated in the end of the universe that as it cools, and becomes the "big freeze" you may have your BEC state until the spark of the next Big Bang. Also, the big freeze refers to contraction of the universe, but its expanding ever so. What may happen then because we're so far apart and stars start to twinkle out, the heat source of all cosmic activity is reduced until the freeze takes over. That is a long ways off, maybe trillions of yrs. from now because light itself doesn't degrade until at least a trillion yrs. down the road. Put it this way, we won't be around to see a natural BEC universal state. -----Willy Happy



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"Tired light?
by crowsfoot / December 9, 2012 9:47 AM PST
In reply to: No

>>>"It can get only so cold and so hot"<<<
No. Corection. It can only get so cold. Hot, is open ended as far as we can tell.

Tired light

explains the differences in the numbers, and in what we preceve. Why they gave up on it is a mystery to me. They seem to want us to believe in magic these days.

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Tired light is a side show
by Willy / December 9, 2012 10:29 AM PST
In reply to: "Tired light?

From what I gather, it can get so hot, that it becomes cold(1 theory), expelled energy. It goes full cycle and falls off so fast, but then the only time its been that hot is in the beginning, when it took 300M yrs. to cool off enough to make the 1st atom. Before the big bang it had to be cooler, though in some hot solid plasma phase but all in one singular point. According to theory...

If light "red shifts" so far in its wave length we may not be able to see it anymore as it flattens or becomes a veryyyy long wave length. While I find wiki a decent source, I don't count on it for solid 100% fact, I rather goto the source as it were. As for tired, it probably more probable that dust and distance and all interference can cause measurements to be off, to include if looking at bent light, but yeah a few kicked(collision ejected) protons would over time be lost.. Bent light(gravitational lensing) can lead to light travelling from distances that you're really aren't looking at the straight-line source. Something like looking at light within "fiber optics" being bent to go around corners. But the big bang theory seems not to support tired light as it stands as red shift is more about galaxies traveling away from us.

Yeah it's still magic. As i stated before from our point in the universe to come to some theories and conclusion is amazing to me. I guess we can interpret the observational knowledge pretty decently.

=== Willy brain fart ===

Which up to now has allowed me to think of mechanisms on the universal scale in my thinking. It's been offered that the universe is all part of a lattice network. That can be very possible as i see the forces of the universe push and pull on huge universe scale. Basically, i see the forces whatever they maybe causing, "pressure ridges" in turn to seen as huge blocks or bubbles. Think of soap bubbles against each other of various sizes, etc., but linked as a lattice that can be seen. All the touching of bubbles as a ridge or boundary from all forces acting upon it. If the universal lattice is real, then its only takes the huge qualitative forces to build it. It's something akin of not seeing the forest because of the trees. If possible then the "connection" to dark energy is that any new bubble pushes on the next bubble causing it to move. Not like billiard balls bouncing, but like a new person in line pushing on person in front, a huge chain reaction. These pushing events are based on time and space events that never get displaced as nothing is lost, it has to makes room for it to exist. Expansion is thus done. Dark matter maybe the substance(best I can think of) of these pressure ridges, it is NOT matter in the true sense but an effect. Which may explain why galaxies don't fly apart, it's a bubble rubbing against another bubble. It all falls into place. Wink ------Willy Happy

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Delightful to see intelligent discussion here
by wpgwpg / December 9, 2012 10:54 AM PST

I've avoided getting into the Speakeasy forum up to now because I have no use for the political drivel that is so prevalent here. This physics topic however is both stimulating and very intelligent.
Regarding what holds galaxies together, we're pretty sure that dark matter plays an important role, but what about the recent discovery of what appears to be the Higgs boson and its effect on gravity?
Re the big bang, brane theory seems to make sense to me. What if there ARE bubble-like universes out there and two collided to form the big bang? Or what if somewhere out there black holes kept colliding and growing until one of them exploded, creating our universe? These theories have important physicists proposing them, but we have so little information and such limited means of finding out at present. Maybe when they crank that LHC up to 14 TEV, we'll have a breakthrough?
I'm no physicist, but I did minor in physics shortly after the dinosaurs went extinct. Happy

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Read older posts, check them out too
by Willy / December 9, 2012 12:25 PM PST

I'm no physicist either or even a smart math guy, but like to consider the term "theorist" as a good label.

As for black holes, while they do exist and they may collide over time, and they just shallow everything. However, if the last great big black hole comes to its end, because under Hawkin's theory they can "evaporate" as black holes aren't a constant feeding monster. They suppose to be idle for some time and then kick-in again as like everything else it wants to be stable. Thus, if nothing of great ingestion is present it starts to evaporate or bleed away due to "virtual particles" passing the event horizon, they become stripped as they are in "pairs". Because the universe is expanding, black holes too travel at the same rate, so they may not be in contact to other black holes, even with their gravitational pull, as its only a regional effect. Besides evaporation, it may have a polar axis spews some matter back in a jet stream when too much gets heated and exits out as it literally builds a bridge at its weakest point.

There maybe something to fear of Boson-Higgs creating a mini-blackhole. It may grow big enough to shallow at least the earth, OR? The energy to make particles for the Boson-Higgs type could be coming soon. At that's needed is huge globs of power. I like to point out that when they discovered the Boson-Higgs particle they couldn't look at it, it was a computer model saying it happened. It's important because basically, you have the initial building block of matter, it has to start somewhere which has to be some mass and possible character to particles.


Brane theory deals too much with mutli-verses or M-theory or similar. Its hard to make it possible to explore when you have to "phase in/out of these dimensions", though on paper it may exist. Still too early and quite frankly if this does exist, there maybe a reason one dimension is separate from another. As i understand it when 1st proposed or making seem possible, they kept adding dimensions in order to explain missing holes in the math. It got to a point they weren't carrying typical paper pads no more but huge artist pads to express the math as they became huge equations. I think they settles at 10 or 11 dimensions.

Yeah, I like to post here on physics topics as the political rhetoric gets old. But, heck that's part of a free society or what's left of it. -----Willy Happy

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Drake Equation
by crowsfoot / December 13, 2012 8:21 AM PST

The equation is usually written:
N = R* • fp • ne • fl • fi • fc • L


N = The number of civilizations in The Milky Way Galaxy whose electromagnetic emissions are detectable.

R* =The rate of formation of stars suitable for the development of intelligent life.

fp = The fraction of those stars with planetary systems.

ne = The number of planets, per solar system, with an environment suitable for life.

fl = The fraction of suitable planets on which life actually appears.

fi = The fraction of life bearing planets on which intelligent life emerges.

fc = The fraction of civilizations that develop a technology that releases detectable signs of their existence into space.

L = The length of time such civilizations release detectable signals into space.

I have to wonder how much, that the fact that a planet like our's apperently "lights up" in radio at some point, might mean that's it's ripe for harvesting? That would be a subfactor under L.

Who knows who's, or what's, out there?
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Who knows is right
by wpgwpg / December 13, 2012 8:39 AM PST
In reply to: Drake Equation

We keep looking and listening and sending up better and better satellites with better and better detection devices, so who knows what we could find. The amount of progress that's been made since we first sent up the Hubble telescope is amazing to me. I can't believe we're the only planet with intelligent life, but it could take a loooonnnnng to find others, given that the universe is 13.7 billion years old and the incredibly vast distance between galaxies.

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I believe
by crowsfoot / December 13, 2012 10:07 AM PST
In reply to: Who knows is right

that we're on the road to developing machine intelegence. When we do, I wonder if there aren't sexual type preditors waiting?

On the other hand, there may be adults watching. Garderners. Protectors.

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It may be that we spend the next 10.000 years
by crowsfoot / December 13, 2012 11:35 AM PST
In reply to: Who knows is right

exploring dead civilizations. Arcology. And nothig more. Odds apearently are that intelegence, at some point, becomes counterproductive. Stick that in your pipe.

We can hope for intelegent oversight. But I don't know.

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by crowsfoot / December 13, 2012 8:46 AM PST
In reply to: Drake Equation

(it seems to me) that inhabitants from light gravity worlds and moons will become space-born earlier in their development than those from heavy gravity worlds.

Statically, it seems to me, they will have a less developed moral code.

Are there enforcers out there? I say yes.

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We have smoked on this matter
by crowsfoot / December 13, 2012 5:23 PM PST
In reply to: Statically

and we're not mistaken.

There are those outthere looking out for us.

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Dark energy may not exist.
by crowsfoot / December 9, 2012 2:45 PM PST

It may be that our observations don't take into account certain factors. (This being seperate from dark matter.)

I want to hold on to the Einsteinian explanation for as long as I can. Wink Silly me, but there you go. It was hard enough for me to get to here. If slow light explains away the need for dark energy. If it makes the numbers come out right without assuming a 70% more universe that we can not see, I'm for looking at that.

Have you looked at Bose-Einstein condensates (BEC)? The speed of light is slowed down by factors of a thousand or more.

If most of the universe is at 3 degrees kelvin, more or less, doesn't it make sense that, within the constructive/destructive waves on the pond, that there will be transient pockets cold enough to disentangle mater? Just like we do every day in the lab? Wouldn't this look just like dark enengy?

Us, misreading the data.

I know they've pretty much given up on tired light. I don't know why.

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More data...
by Willy / December 10, 2012 1:54 AM PST

Well, when I read the book by Hawkins on the theory of black holes, it allowed me to rethink the purpose of matter and how it's made of. The basic big idea I was lead away with is "information", that nothing gets lost in a black hole. it still has to exist even in a different form. That was pointed out that the event horizon gets bigger and expands to be the bigger black hole it becomes because all that "information" is present. Not to call information another form of matter but rather all that it "is" becomes lodged in a black hole. This thinking allows me to think that information as in an event doesn't get lost even in normal space. That's proven because we see light from a distance star that may have burnt out long ago, yet we're now getting it or still do until that information string becomes interrupted or exhausted. The event is still with us as in the "life span" of a star. Multiple that by all the events in the universe, that makes the universe larger and has to expand to commendate, something like having more room for folders in a file drawer. NOTHING is wasted or lost, even that last burp or spilled milk, it all gets logged in a cosmic way. In a way like the "butterfly effect" on a universal scale seen as information.

Sometimes it takes awhile for all that reading to sink in or it pops-up what they were trying to explain or propose. As i stated before it takes one book to make sense of another as they rehash the same info, over and over again. As for dark matter and energy, these are relatively recent ideas that seem to have the observational views come to terms to explain. Since, the Hubble got it's vision fix done, it really gets interesting. The "deep space view" of what was thought o be empty turned out to have a eyeful of galaxies far beyond in yet another region of our universe. The universe is one big place and that may allow reduction in universe make-up as more matter is still yet undiscovered. Dark matter may be nothing more than dust and small particles floating out there that collectively becomes the huge amounts required to fill the 100% totals of matter. On the other hand, dark energy is perplexing as so far the measurements suggest we are "speeding up" beyond what gravity should have taken over and start to reverse expansion or begin the "big crunch". NO! we not only expanding but speeding faster than ever. if this continues we may find ourselves as in matter all approaching the speed of light. Are we heading towards a super black hole, maybe no? You would think that if our universe is expanding in all directions a black hole would be causing us to be a single direction. -OR- is this the result of black hole causing the "dark flow" of at least one region of our universe heading towards something, maybe another universe? It takes too long and required time to get these measurements to compare. If fact, returning to older data is a recourse done often enough to validate some theory or another. we need another 10yrs. or even centuries to really get a feel of what's happening out there with data to compare it all. I hope you packed a lunch. -----Willy Happy

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Dark Flow
by crowsfoot / December 10, 2012 9:42 AM PST
In reply to: More data...

The question is whether what we observe is completely corect. I'm seeing regions of space going under the temperature limit where the speed of light is what we assume. I'm seeing rings, like the rings in a pond, where things are as they used to be. A quantum mash. And us not seeing it correctly.
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The speed of light loses it's meaning
by crowsfoot / December 10, 2012 9:58 AM PST
In reply to: Dark Flow

at low enough tempretures. It loses it's identity matrix.

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Each year 26,000,000
by crowsfoot / December 13, 2012 3:33 PM PST
In reply to: Dark Flow

take their own lives.

38,000 children starve to death each day.

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Dark energy
by wpgwpg / December 14, 2012 12:26 AM PST
In reply to: More data...

I'm inclined to think what's being called dark energy may well be one or more other universes that're just too far away for us to see. I packed a lunch, but I don't think I'll be able to take it to the "hereafter".

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To go where???
by Willy / December 14, 2012 2:39 AM PST
In reply to: Dark energy

Dark energy if somehow provided by an ext. universe would have to be very strong or be able to extend the vast distances involved. On that value, I just can't see it happening. When you consider that our universe is expanding in all directions and supposedly even measure it must be an int. force or energy. Of course, it's dark as we yet don't understand the underlying source. So far all we can do is measure that our universe is expanding and was only found in recent history. We have a ling ways to go before we can pinpoint what's really happening.

One idea I suppose would be a universe well or spout, that's still pouring out from its source in the middle of our universe. The wash as it were like water causes water to spread out. But researchers seem to think we're on a balloon surface and that's the boundary that expands. if i understand this right, then some void should appear troughs the middle or "inside". Even though we can see vast distances, we maybe seeing the other side of balloon as the middle is invisible(or not solid) as well see through it.

Like in the space movies, we need an off world space station. Really a space array outside of our solar system or what is considered an ideal location that can better observe and become the warning station of sorts. Just having it out there and self-supporting would be fantastic. I would think the moon would serve this purpose quite until we got a space array. -----Willy Happy

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Look far, my friend!
by crowsfoot / December 15, 2012 10:11 AM PST
In reply to: To go where???

What those TV shows want you to follow, is not what you have to take away. Art is supposed to make you think.

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Natural progression
by Willy / December 17, 2012 12:04 AM PST
In reply to: Look far, my friend!

TV shows, no. It's the logical progression of our technology to allow to explore space or live at a much later time, there. Afterall, the Skylab and Current SpaceStation did and are doing this now. We have a long ways to g before it becomes common space. A lot or work and gathering knowledge still needs to be done. Heck, they still can't figure out the means of trash disposal and toilet needs. Not to exlude anything else that's biological like cleaniness inside the station and the means to keep in shape to reduce bone(calium) loss. These are the known things and all that in a metal can with the thicknew of a soda can(outer shield). -----Willy Happy

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What came before the bang.
by crowsfoot / December 15, 2012 9:56 AM PST
In reply to: Dark energy

Is the modern question.

Dark energy may very well be the new real thing. The SOL, is the new (and the old) question. Why it's absolute?

It very well may not be. But if it's not, the whole philosophical idea of linear time is caput.

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I packed a lunch.
by crowsfoot / December 15, 2012 10:00 AM PST
In reply to: Dark energy

I didn't. Happy

We contrubute until we don't.

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