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Multiple shootings at Conn. grade school

by Josh K / December 14, 2012 2:36 AM PST
http://www.cnn.com

At least ten children are among the dead. This is the second such incident in a week.

How much is enough? It's past time for someone to call hearings, force every Republican Congressperson and Senator to attend, and then project the most gruesome crime scene photos they can find.

And people worry about Muslims.

Merry Christmas from the NRA.
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Saw that too. Very tragic
by Steven Haninger / December 14, 2012 3:02 AM PST

I'd not automatically focus on politics having anything to do with it, however. Something seems to be breeding more nut cases. Certainly people have become meaner. In my lifetime, both parties have had a fairly equal amount of time to be in control of government but I don't see any way to legislate away that meanness or the possibility that someone may go berserk.

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you can't legislate their meanness
by JP Bill / December 14, 2012 3:31 AM PST

or the possibility that someone may go berserk.

And you certainly can't legislate the options they have to do damage if/when they do get mean or go berserk. (gun control)

Looks like you're over a barrel.

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(NT) Or make a bomb..............Looks like you're over a barrel
by JP Bill / December 14, 2012 3:55 AM PST
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"Something seems to be breeding more nut cases"
by drpruner / December 14, 2012 5:25 AM PST

'over half of such in US recent history have occurred since 2007', said one report.
Breeding 'em faster, too, it seems.
"be in control of government" Obama said, 'I respond as a father.' Father, President, school Principal- all helpless. I can't imagine the terror in the survivors' little hearts. Sad

On 12/12/12 a father carved a pentagram into his 6-yr-old son's back. (The kid will be OK, I hear.) Why? "It was a holy day." Difference in quantity only IMO.

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This won't go away by passing laws
by Steven Haninger / December 14, 2012 5:37 AM PST

We've "been there...done that" for a lot of other problems and have achieved no tangible benefit. This is a problem deeper than government can resolve by any method available to them. This is a change that has been happening in people and not in available armaments.

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RE:This is a problem deeper than government can resolve
by JP Bill / December 14, 2012 5:45 AM PST
This is a problem deeper than government can resolve by any method available to them.

Men are men...humans are humans....the only difference is government/laws/regulations?
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Humans make choices
by Steven Haninger / December 14, 2012 6:02 AM PST

as to whether to obey or not obey laws. Before you can be successful with solving problems through legislation, you must first have people who can be trusted to adhere to them. The problem is in the people and not the law.

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RE: The problem is in the people and not the law.
by JP Bill / December 14, 2012 6:41 AM PST
In reply to: Humans make choices

Since you can't legislate morality....You're over a barrel.....

It's strange how morality recognizes borders, sometimes.

I'm not saying it never happens...just way less frequently, IF it's only because "we're human" was the deciding factor.

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Do you want to propose a solution?
by Steven Haninger / December 14, 2012 6:50 AM PST

Do you think this type of shooting is the fault of a political party and/or the NRA? Do you think gun control legislation is the answer? Can we even find a good definition of "gun control"?
It might be nice to have laws on the books but, IMO, it won't make a noticeable difference in crimes of violence as long as we have so many people prone to violence and who don't care about laws.

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Violence
by TONI H / December 14, 2012 7:00 AM PST

The closest things to violence we had when we were younger were The Lone Ranger shootouts, Popeye & Bluto, The Roadrunner and Wiley Coyote, and an older brother's torment.....or a drunken abusive parent here and there. We didn't see it on television or in the movies (unless you count The Mummy or Dracula flicks), and now it's the norm to have as much blood, guts, and gore as possible (Texas Chainsaw Massacre and Jason and Freddie Krueger), even in our video games, not to mention the music (or at least what they call music). Kids get numb to it and have learned to see killings as a way to solve a temporary problem permanently. How many actually have seen the inside of a church, no matter what their faith might be? When God is taken out of your life by non-believers, what's left? God is your conscience......and most kids don't have one anymore.

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And now we think the inner hearts and souls of kids
by Steven Haninger / December 14, 2012 7:47 AM PST
In reply to: Violence

can be healed by puppet characters?...and shows like "Leave it to Beaver", if watched for curiosity, is for its comedy value as an object of mockery? This and similar horrible events didn't happen because of faulty 2nd Amendment rights. More likely it was faulty upbringing.

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RE: didn't happen because of faulty 2nd Amendment rights.
by JP Bill / December 14, 2012 12:21 PM PST
didn't happen because of faulty 2nd Amendment rights. More likely it was faulty upbringing.

That's why you need laws...Not all upbringing is perfect. So it was faulty 2nd Amendment rights.

The laws are the backup plan.....IF they haven't learned by the time they're 16...When all else fails...make a law....enforce a law...punish the perp!!!!

If the perp is still able to accomplish their mission put every roadblock that you can in their way to try and prevent them from accomplishing their mission. IF that means banning guns (or making them REALLY difficult to possess)...then do it....If you figure it will just make them move on to figuring out how to build a bomb...then that's the way it goes....You look for a way to block bomb building.....IF you don't want to do what I've suggested....Go back and sit on your couch with your picket sign and watch Ozzie and Harriet.
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What you suggest
by TONI H / December 14, 2012 6:02 PM PST

isn't feasible or realistic.........not when you have law enforcement being told to ignore those laws............illegal immigration, pot use, Dream Act kids, voter intimidation, Fast & Furious, etc. Laws are only the backup plan when you have a plan to actually enforce them. You can't have leaders that just willy-nilly pick and choose the ones they want to enforce and look the other way for the ones they personally think are 'unfair'. When law breakers catch a break because of who is in office and making decisions rather than give fair treatment to all, the law breakers get away with more and more......we already have a system that protects the perps more than they protect the victims of their crimes. Maybe if we actually punished the bad guys for a change instead of slap on the wrist or a wink and a nod, we would have less crime... When your actions don't have consequences, what do you learn?

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RE: What you suggest isn't feasible or realistic.
by JP Bill / December 14, 2012 7:16 PM PST
In reply to: What you suggest
make a law....enforce a law...punish the perp!!!!


But when you suggest it ...it is?

Maybe if we actually punished the bad guys for a change instead of slap on the wrist or a wink and a nod, we would have less crime...
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So now this is Obama's fault too
by Josh K / December 15, 2012 9:04 AM PST
In reply to: What you suggest

You should be ashamed of yourself.

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Josh....
by TONI H / December 15, 2012 7:18 PM PST
In reply to: What you suggest

I never said that it was BO's fault, too........JP said we need new laws. I responded that we don't need new laws that can be ignored by the very lawMAKERS based on what laws they pick and choose they will enforce, and publicly announce they will ignore them.

And it wasn't the 2nd Amendment that 'forced' Adam's mother to purchase these types of weapons in her name and have them in close proximity to a son that is already 'mentally challenged' and 'autistic'. Why aren't 'we' looking at the mother for making some pretty bad decisions when obviously she didn't personally need or use them? None are the 'normal' guns a woman would have around to protect herself and she wasn't in need of normal hunting rifles or those would have been found at her home.

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Toni --
by Josh K / December 16, 2012 12:12 AM PST
In reply to: What you suggest

You're saying that new laws are useless because you think this president will choose to ignore them. That's as good as blaming him, if not for this mass murder then for the next one. Your hatred of this president has no place in this discussion.

There is absolutely no reason why any civilian should own automatic or semi-automatic weapons. None. That the mother was able to buy the murder weapon at all is at issue.

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Josh
by James Denison / December 16, 2012 1:48 AM PST
In reply to: What you suggest

Obviously that was a reference to "Fast & Furious" situation during this administration, worse really than the rumored Iran-Contra matter during Reagans' term.

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Yes, Josh
by TONI H / December 16, 2012 2:22 AM PST
In reply to: What you suggest

I AM saying that new laws are useless unless we enforce them, as well as enforce the ones ALREADY in place. What we need is more focus on mental health, especially for 'men' between 16 and 25 because they are the ones most prone to these types of killings....for no apparent reason other than they get angry, can't deal with rejection or being made fun of, or a teacher pisses them off or just because they want to see how it 'feels' to kill somebody. There are many times when a kid is in a psychiatrist's office claiming that they are afraid they are going to kill someone, the doctor has him to to the ER to get admitted, and now the kid says he's 'better' and doesn't feel that way anymore.....and the kid gets sent home. There are no controls in place to actually DO anything ahead of time even when all the signs are screaming in your face and the bureaucratic crap is so complicated and entangled within so many departments/agencies that a potential killer is back walking among us like a ticking time bomb.

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I think we need both, Toni
by Josh K / December 16, 2012 10:29 PM PST
In reply to: What you suggest

We absolutely need to make substantial changes to the way we handle mental health issues. I believe it was the mother of the Virginia Tech shooter who repeatedly tried to get help for her son but was refused because he hadn't done anything violent yet. The system needs to be less reactive and more proactive, while still remaining within the Constitution.

However we need changes in gun laws too. The 19th century wild west attitude held by too many in this country has got to change. It's outdated and has become too dangerous to mollycoddle any longer. To the nuts who argue that lives would have been saved if the teachers were armed, I say that if we come to a point where we feel we have to arm our schoolteachers, then we have failed as a civilized, advanced culture.

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Josh re: arm our schoolteachers
by MarkatNite / December 17, 2012 6:29 AM PST
In reply to: What you suggest

>"To the nuts who argue that lives would have been saved if the teachers were armed, I say that if we come to a point where we feel we have to arm our schoolteachers, then we have failed as a civilized, advanced culture."

a) that approach has actually worked. (I've provided a link that substantiates this in this thread as well as other previous threads.) And probably would've worked here since the chicken$#!+ who committed this crime supposedly killed himself rather than face armed responders.

b) IMO we have failed as a civilized, advanced culture when we demonstratively value our money more than our children. i.e. guard our banks, not our schools. (And I've also posted this sentiment before, but apparently the forum doesn't go back that far.)

Mark

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(NT) You keep kicking the can down the road?
by Steven Haninger / December 14, 2012 6:15 PM PST
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Same thought ran through my mind too.
by James Denison / December 14, 2012 12:47 PM PST

I guess they'll have school shootings on Sesame Street next. Sad really, used to be a place kids could escape reality for awhile.

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Exactly...and kids need that escape
by Steven Haninger / December 14, 2012 6:22 PM PST

There's nothing wrong with kids having a place of haven from reality as long as it's recognized as such.

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RE:There's nothing wrong with kids having a place of haven
by JP Bill / December 14, 2012 8:04 PM PST
There's nothing wrong with kids having a place of haven from reality as long as it's recognized as such.

THAT'S when you tell the kids about divorce....After they watch Sesame Street...You turn the TV off and while they are feeling relaxed YOU bring up the subject of divorce...or gun violence.

You say to your child

"Everything isn't like you see on Sesame Street Honey....Sometimes people don't get along/do bad things.........."
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So you spoil the kid's inner peace
by Steven Haninger / December 14, 2012 10:17 PM PST

by bringing up depressing subjects, JP Bill.

Yeah...that's great parenting!

(BTW. Looks like this sub was already at the end of the line. Time to hang up the phone.)

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RE: Yeah...that's great parenting!
by JP Bill / December 14, 2012 10:26 PM PST

You're the one that said

as long as it's recognized as such.

Telling them is how you make sure it's recognized.

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Maybe I remember more clearly than you do, but
by Ziks511 / December 15, 2012 8:33 PM PST
In reply to: Violence

teen gang violence in the 50's was the basis of West Side Story. Big cities had adolescent gangs armed with zip guns, and knives and baseball bats. Big cities had grave Heroin problems, and the crime rate was high though tailing off until the Baby Boom generation became teenagers and then it started to climb again. It peaked about 1992 and has been declining ever since. It is now back to 1972 levels, a period I remember as pretty wonderful except for the War.

I will say that kids were far less well armed then, now they seem to have unfettered access to huge stores of weapons and ammunition. The world always produces aberrant individuals, and it sounds like his mother was a tyrant in the home. He moved out, and then was disposessed by Hurricane Sandy, lost his independence and moved back in with Mom, and he snapped.

There are lots of people who talk about doing stuff like this, who never do it, and there are atheists among those people, just as there are fine church goers who shoot up the congregation. Having a Moral Compass is not dependent upon active religion. We all learn what is right and wrong. Some damaged people don't care about right and wrong, and some just have a psychotic break, which has nothing to do with a religious core, it is more a neurochemical situation brought on by excessive stress and not having learned how to deal with it.

I believe the old Mafia was a collection of people brought up in the traditions and strictures of the Catholic Church but that didn't prevent them from becoming murderers. And David Koresh was a very religious guy, as was Jim Jones.

The entirety of American society is governed by laws and precepts that arise out of the Judaeo-Christian tradition. You don't have to attend church to get the orientation, it's everywhere and in virtually every book and most television programs.

Being religious doesn't stop people from being outraged by a simple statement of fact by Bob Costas, that if there hadn't been a gun in the equation, that two people could still be alive. Not guaranteed, but less likely to have ended in murder suicide. And if she'd been armed, both of them could still be dead.

There is no easy answer to this, though I do think that the evening news has a responibility not to glory in the spilling of blood as much of it does.

Any one remember Charles Whitman? Or Richard Speck? or an endless list of other creepazoids. This isn't a modern disease. Sawney Bean and his cannibal family terrorized medieval Scotland, and Deacon Brodie, a Deacon of the Presbyterian Church, was the great criminal king-pin in 18th Century Edinburgh. It is a simple fact of life that there are people who act this way in all times and places and there's no way of escaping that. Now, fewer weapons would help IMO, but most serial killers don't use guns.

Like I said, there is no easy answer.

Rob

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This might be an odd thought but it's also widely reported
by Steven Haninger / December 15, 2012 9:27 PM PST

that the teen and young adult suicide rate has been climbing. I need to ask myself if these young mass killers aren't really targeting their victims as much as wanting to bring themselves to a suicidal "point of no return". They want to kill themselves but can't do so without creating a situation that makes turning the gun on themselves the better option at the moment.

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Pick your poison
by James Denison / December 16, 2012 2:24 AM PST

It's not guns, knives, machetes, bombs, it's people, bad people, crazy people, hateful people. If not guns, then there's plenty of other things to be done, as the world testifies.

Here's a listing of primary school attacks.

There's one in Bath, Michigan which killed 45 at a school and injured 58 in 1927. In other countries, one in Russia involving 1100 school children with deaths over 350 and many more injured as Chechen rebels took over a school and committed atrocities. Surprising is the number of school killings in such a totalitarian climate found in China, which just proves all the control in the world won't stop someone committed to violence against children.

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