Samsung

General discussion

Moire effect

by HDTV_Challenged / January 22, 2009 5:04 AM PST

I have the LN52A650. The picture quality is great, but I still get what I think is called the "moire effect" with certain backgrounds or images. It is a kind of shimmering effect. I made some adjustments when I first got the set but they were primarily to adjust the overall picture quality, like backlight and brightness. Really didn't notice the effect at the time and it doesn't happen often. It is not that bad, but if anyone has any suggestions on what to tweak that might reduce the moire pattern I'd appreciate them. Thanks.

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All inputs?
by Samsung_HD_Tech Samsung staff / January 22, 2009 5:55 AM PST
In reply to: Moire effect

Is it on all inputs, or does it happen with just one of the inputs?

I want to see if we can isolate this to the television, or one specific source.

--HDTech

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Except for DVD, only one input
by HDTV_Challenged / January 22, 2009 8:12 AM PST
In reply to: All inputs?

Except for the DVD, (haven't noticed it with DVD) I'm only using one input, HDMI from a cable HD DVR box, so all content analog/digital, SD/HD come through that connection. I only notice the moire pattern in the HD content, but that's what I watch most of the time. I would assume, maybe incorrectly, that I would be less likely to see it in SD programming anyway because of the lack of detail.

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Moire....
by Samsung_HD_Tech Samsung staff / January 22, 2009 9:36 AM PST

I would assume that same thing also.

Does it change (improve, or otherwise) if you change the output resolution from the box?

--HDTech

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1080i and 720p
by HDTV_Challenged / January 22, 2009 10:22 PM PST
In reply to: Moire....

Right now the cable box is configured to pass (I think that's the correct term) both 1080i and 720p to the TV. In other words, I told the cable box my TV supports both. I could also include the 480i/p settings but didn't. I will try changing it to only 1080i, but I'm not sure if that's what you're suggesting.

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Isolating..
by Samsung_HD_Tech Samsung staff / January 23, 2009 7:38 AM PST
In reply to: 1080i and 720p

HDTV_Challenged,

I was merely trying to isolate to see if the issue happens when the connection isn't passed through the receiver. This would allow us to determine if the television shows it regardless (being a possible issue with the television) or an issue possiby with the receiver.

If the receiver can pass 720p and 1080i, naturally, you don't want to put a 480 or 1080p signal through there, as the receiver wouldn't be able to process (or in some cases, pass through correctly).

DVD 720 through Receiver 720 = 720 input into TV, a consistent pass through.

Does that make a little more sense?

--HDTech

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Not sure?
by HDTV_Challenged / January 23, 2009 11:58 PM PST
In reply to: Isolating..

Well, I'm not sure if I completely understand . I can certainly bypass the cable box by connecting the cable directly to the TV. However, once that's done the trick may be to "catch" the problem when it happens, if ever. As I said, this isn't something that occurs frequently, but I do see it. Actually, I thought this effect was not uncommon, and that tweaking of some standard settings can alleviate the effect. I've also seen it in a Sony TV and that was helped by adjusting down things like backlight and brightness, maybe something else. But since there have been no other responses to my post I guess others have not experienced it.

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Moir
by amendegw / March 19, 2009 2:49 AM PDT
In reply to: Not sure?

Does anyone know what causes this? I have a Samsung HLP5663W (DLP) that is also exhibiting a moir

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Moir
by HDTV_Challenged / March 19, 2009 5:03 AM PDT
In reply to: Moir

It would seem nobody else sees it, or it is not a problem to them. Most of the time for me it was not an issue. I've done some searching on the Internet and tried playing with some of the settings, most recently turning down the contrast, but I've also turned down the sharpness and backlight, and I'm not using the most dynamic or vivid setting. But it has all been trail and error. I've never gotten a definitive answer on it. I believe the picture looks better and I see less of the moire effect. I don't really understand all of the TV settings, and while my TV is a different model than yours, I had hoped that by posting here someone would be able to explain what causes it and suggest which settings should be adjusted. Maybe it is not common and is an issue with our TVs, or the source, but again, I was hoping there would be specific settings to tweak to adjust for it.

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Moir
by amendegw / March 19, 2009 7:09 AM PDT
In reply to: Moir

HDTV_Challenged,

A question and a comment.

First the question... Does pattern on my TV look like the same problem you're having?

The comment... After trying everything I can think of, I'm coming down to two possibilities:
1) An internal problem with the TV - maybe an alignment issue, a Service Menu setting or a defective part (maybe a fan producing RF noise).
2) An external electrical interference. I've already tried turning off computers and wireless sources. My next step is to get my wife to flip circuit breakers while I watch the TV for an improvement.

I'd love to hear from someone that could say, "Oh yeah, I've seen this problem before and it's caused by XXXXXX".

...Jerry

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Circuit Breaker test
by amendegw / March 20, 2009 1:32 AM PDT
In reply to: Moir

Okay, I just had my wife flip every circuit breaker on the my house's breaker board and could not get the distortion/interference to disappear.

...Jerry

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cable box signal test
by mamontano / March 20, 2009 2:13 AM PDT
In reply to: Circuit Breaker test

Have you had that checked yet? Maybe a signal booster.
I've seen all kinds of problems when people change out
their original cable boxes and tv's and upgrade to hdtv
and hd cable boxes. Connections and splitters are old
and sometimes outside. This has happened recently with
my family. Cable company comes out tests signal and to
find out it's weak and they replace old connections,cable and
splitters and add signal boosters or attenuators. I think
these hd boxes are sensitive to weak signals. Don't know
if this will help you but it couldn't hurt to check.

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Not the Cable Box
by amendegw / March 20, 2009 2:32 AM PDT
In reply to: cable box signal test

mamontano,

I appreciated the thoughts, but it is very unlikely the cable box is the problem...

1) The distortion also occurs with my DVD player as signal source.
2) I have no signal boosters.
3) I have Verizon FIOS - when it was installed about 9 months ago, the tech replaced all splitters. The interference problem started about 3 months ago.
4) I've tried all manner of combination of cables and resolutions (720p, 1080i, SD) and TV picture settings (notably "sharpness") with no relief.
5) My upstairs Sharp LCD does not have the problem.

You know, while I'm writing this, I'm thinking... maybe a good test would be to drag the Sharp LCD down to the family room and test that out (I really doubt I'll see the interference). I'll post the results once go thru that test.

...Jerry

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Moir
by HDTV_Challenged / March 20, 2009 2:50 AM PDT
In reply to: Moir

Jerry,
I'm not able to view the image without installing Silverlight, so I can't say whether it is the same issue. But, mine was occuring only in those conditions I would expect it might happen, something with a grid pattern, checkered or herringbone suit on a commentator, leaves on trees in the background if the lighting was right (that's what led me to try adjusting contrast), even gray hair in some cases. Most of the time I did not see it. I saw the same thing on a Sony connected to the same source in the same way. Maybe it is the source, or the HD box, but it is not my feeling it is the TV, at least not more than making a few adjustments to the TV would correct. Others might not see it and not have to make the same adjustments, but lets face it, everyone adjusts their TV. If you're seeing this all the time then maybe you have a more serious issue. But again, I thought a moire pattern was a common and known result of certain image/photo conditions and that an adjustment or so would correct, or at least make better. But I am probably wrong.

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Silverlight
by amendegw / March 20, 2009 8:38 AM PDT
In reply to: Moir

<i>"I'm not able to view the image without installing Silverlight"</i>

Hmmmm... I've had this reaction before. "Silverlight" is Microsoft's answer to "Flash". Seems like no one has an issue with "Flash", but there's a real reluctance to install "Silverlight". Why is that?

...Jerry

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Silverlight
by HDTV_Challenged / March 20, 2009 9:32 AM PDT
In reply to: Silverlight

I had never heard of Silverlight, and apparently didn't need it, until I attempted to view your example.

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I watched the video
by HDTV_Challenged / March 23, 2009 10:37 PM PDT
In reply to: Silverlight

OK, I installed Silverlight and was able to view your example. I would say that what I'm seeing is similar but not quite the same. The way I describe it is as a shimmering effect. Almost as if the display (maybe it is the source camera) is trying to get the exposure, or color right. I'm not really sure how to describe it technically. Yours seems to be doing that, but I also notice wavy vertical lines in your example that I do not see on mine. The scenes you give as examples are like those where I would expect to see it on mine. In fact, where I first noticed it was in the turf of a football field while watching a game. But, as mentioned before, I would also see it in scenes like the one you show of the fireplace where it has a pattern or coloration that seems to cause the effect. It tends to be where there is very fine detail in the image. However, as mentioned in a previous post, I don't see it nearly as much as I used to since making some adjustments, most recently in the contrast because it occured to me after watching for some time that it is most obvious when there is some overexposure or "washing" out in the bright areas of a scene.

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Moir
by Samsung_HD_Tech Samsung staff / March 22, 2009 3:07 PM PDT
In reply to: Moir

amendegw,

When did you purchase the unit?

--HDTech

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Puchase date
by amendegw / March 22, 2009 8:47 PM PDT
In reply to: Moir

HDTech,

I'm happy to see a Samsung "expert" has weighed in on this problem.

I purchased the TV in April 2005. I'm sure that's well out of warranty. It has served me well, with the exception of the need to replace the color wheel (about a year ago), I've been happy with it.

Where you able to view the online example? http://www.jazzythedog.com/distortion.aspx If Silverlight is a problem, I can post a example to youtube - however, I'm concerned youtube's quality will not adequately show the problem.

Early in March, I sent a request to the Samsung on-line support, noting the above URL an also attaching a video file (wmv extension). Here is there response: <i>"We are unable to view that file. If you would call us at 1-800-Samsung so that you can describe your issue we can determine if this would be service or not."</i>

I paid $3000 for this TV. The cost of major parts for this unit rivals the cost of a brand new replacement. So... I'd like to have some idea of where the problem lies so I can either fix it myself, call in a tech, or scrap the unit.

...Jerry

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Puchase date
by Samsung_HD_Tech Samsung staff / March 23, 2009 1:28 PM PDT
In reply to: Puchase date

amendegw,

Happy to help.

I was familiar with Silverlight, and I've never had a problem with it. The video is quite good, and the example (with the circle even!) was probably the most impressive I've seen thus far.

I could probably narrow it down to one of two things, but I'm going to forward this to one of my service experts to get his take on it. That said, I can't guarantee without actually looking at the unit that the diagnosis is going to be 100%, but I'll see how close I can get and collectively suggest an unofficial diagnosis.

Maybe the internal email system didn't allow the service person to view the video (which is odd, because sometimes they request pictures), but nevertheless, I can see it and I'll definitely make an inquiry.

Either way, I'll do my best to get you an answer as soon as possible.

--HDTech

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Attention HDtech!
by amendegw / April 4, 2009 1:37 AM PDT
In reply to: Puchase date

HDTech,

On March 23, 2009 you replied:
<i>"I could probably narrow it down to one of two things, but I'm going to forward this to one of my service experts to get his take on it.</i>

Not to be pushy (well, maybe it <i><b>is</b></i> pushy <grin>), absent a report from your service expert, could you give us a clue what your two possibilities might be?

My problem is either getting worse, or my eye is more attuned to the distortion. I'd love the hear the two possibilities are easy fixes/adjustments - that way I could try both.

Furthermore, the Masters is coming up, and I'd love to be able to watch it without wavy lines through the greens.

...Jerry

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Attention HDtech!
by Samsung_HD_Tech Samsung staff / April 4, 2009 4:29 PM PDT
In reply to: Attention HDtech!

amendegw,

Actually it's not pushy at all. I could have sworn I responded to this a day or two after my last response. Please accept my sincere apologies.

The condition is usually caused by either the processor or by the fan motor not spinning properly. This is the best diagnosis I can give based on the information available, and should not be construded as a definitive diagnosis. I believe that both remedies require a mainboard replacement. You might call 800-SAMSUNG and ask for the parts division, or schedule a service tech to give an estimate - or you could contact your local TV repair person also. Since it's out of warranty, I don't think there's a consession that could be made at this point, but you're always free to call and ask to escalate the issue.

The only adjustments I could recommend would be to either change the output resolution on your cable/sat box, or toggle the Noise Reduction settings in your televison. If that doesn't do it, it is likely related to the mainboard.

Again, I apologize for the late response on this.

--HDTech

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Contrast
by amendegw / March 26, 2009 9:21 AM PDT
In reply to: Moire effect

HDTV_Challenged,

<i>"However, as mentioned in a previous post, I don't see it nearly as much as I used to since making some adjustments, most recently in the contrast because it occured to me after watching for some time that it is most obvious when there is some overexposure or "washing" out in the bright areas of a scene"</i>

When I turn down the contrast my problem seems to get worse! Other than that, It seems we have a similar issue. Let's hope the "cause" that HTtech comes up with applies to both of us. Any word yet, HDTech?

...Jerry

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Contrast
by HDTV_Challenged / March 26, 2009 9:46 AM PDT
In reply to: Contrast

It is my perception that it is better than it was, but since I didn't see it all the time a lot may have to do with the programming. When I first raised the question it was not because I thought there was something wrong with the TV, but rather something wrong with a setting or settings. There was also the question, could the problem be something external to the TV, like the cable box, how it is connected, or the source. I didn't want to assume, nor did I believe that there was something wrong with the TV. Might be wrong, but from experience with another make and model TV I was convinced it was simply a matter of making some adjustments. Unfortunately, since there wasn't a lot of response from people like yourself, it is apparent that most don't see it. BTW, I don't think I've noticed it with a DVD source.

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The TV or not the TV
by amendegw / March 26, 2009 10:38 AM PDT
In reply to: Contrast

I think I've eliminated the possibility that it could be a cable, cablebox or "simple" user setting. I'd love to hear that it's a Service Menu setting or maybe RF interference from a bad fan (does your TV a fan? - It's an LCD, isn't it?)

...Jerry

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Fan?
by HDTV_Challenged / March 26, 2009 10:46 PM PDT
In reply to: The TV or not the TV

You are correct, it is a LCD. I don't think there is a fan. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Might be similar problems but isn't your TV a little older? Didn't this problem develop for you recently?

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Conundrum
by amendegw / April 4, 2009 8:09 PM PDT
In reply to: Moire effect

HDTech wrote:
<i>?The condition is usually caused by either the processor or by the fan motor not spinning properly... I believe that both remedies require a mainboard replacement.?</i>

Thanks for the insight! Now I have somewhat of a conundrum ? do I repair or replace? If I go to samsungparts.com, I see that there are two fans? a mainboard fan ($42) & a lamp fan ($33). However, the mainboard goes for $500 (obviously parts-only). I don?t mind tearing into the HLP5663W because I?ve worked as a computer tech for some time (and I don?t have a warranty to void). However, I don?t want to throw good money after bad.

I don?t think it?s an option to have service tech replace the mainboard ?cuz that must go $1,000 when you add the labor. For just a few $$ more, I can get a brand new LCD.

Whadaya think? Take a $75 gamble on the fans. If that doesn?t fix the problem, go for a new TV?

?Jerry

PS: Note to HDTV_Challenged ? I apologize for high jacking your thread as it looks like my ?solutions? are specific to a DLP TV. When I started my input, I thought maybe we had the same problem.

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Glad you joined the discussion
by HDTV_Challenged / April 4, 2009 11:20 PM PDT
In reply to: Conundrum

Not a problem. I'm glad you got involved in the discussion. Always the chance a solution will surface as a result. While our problems may not have the same cause I might still benefit from some of the responses. I'm sorry to hear you may actually have a hardware problem. To give you my two cents, a few dollars to repair a TV might be OK, but I don't think I would invest much.

As my ID implies, I don't "get" a lot of this stuff. For some of the settings I don't understand what they are supposed to do or why you need them, and there are many of of them. It is way more complicated than it used to be. I recently turned off Edge Enhancement (not sure that's the exact setting name). I will also look at Noise Reduction. I have read that some people turn off some or all of these "enhancement" type settings, so I'm trying things. Again, I think the picture is great, but there are times I still see it. For example, I was watching a program in HD that looked great. Except, a woman in the program was wearing a red sweater with a very heavy ribbed looking pattern. No matter the scene, the only place I saw the effect was in her sweater. Everything around her was very good, and if she wasn't in the scene you didn't see it at all. Why would it show only in her sweater? Is it something about the color red? I hadn't really noticed this issue being specific to a color or colors before. Was it the ribbing in the sweater? And maybe more importantly, is it the camera that has the issue and not the TV? Consequently, I don't know what to tweak, or even if I should tweak anything.

Good luck with your decision, and enjoy your new TV. Hint, hint :-).

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Conundrum
by Samsung_HD_Tech Samsung staff / April 5, 2009 5:29 AM PDT
In reply to: Conundrum

amendegw,

I'm sorry, I goofed. I meant "color wheel" motor, not fan. Ugh. I can't believe I didn't catch that in the preview post.

If it was the fan, it wouldn't require the mainboard replacement.

If the fan for the lamp was bad, the set would likely hit a temperature threshold and turn off.

If the fan for the circulation was bad, same thing. The unit would turn off.

The color wheel itself may not be spinning in sync, causing that picture artifacting.

So I apologize. It's not a fan motor, it's a color wheel motor.

So before you order those fans, please consider taking that $75.00 option off the table.... and you're left with:

<i>I don’t mind tearing into the HLP5663W because I’ve worked as a computer tech for some time (and I don’t have a warranty to void). However, I don’t want to throw good money after bad.

I don’t think it’s an option to have service tech replace the mainboard ‘cuz that must go $1,000 when you add the labor. For just a few $$ more, I can get a brand new LCD. </i>

That's probably the aspect you should look at it from.

If it was the fans, it wouldn't require the mainboard replacement, where I said "Both remedies appear that a mainboard replacement is necessary".

(Where did that post go? Did it disappear? I know if I was quoted, it had to be here somewhere!)

So let me rephrase that for your consideration:

If it's either the color wheel motor, or the processor, then it's likely that the entire board needs to be replaced. The tough part with DLP is that almost everything is on the engine (the main board) - and while it's a convenient repair (one board fixes all), it's not perceived as the most cost effective way from the consumer point of view - and maybe rightfully so. The intricate nature of the board itself requires an incredible amount of accuracy, so that's why we do all the adjustments at the factory on those boards so it's ready out of the box, since it can't be done in the field.

Anyway, I wanted to clarify that, and apologize for the typo oopsie.

Thoughts?

--HDTech

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Color Wheel
by amendegw / April 5, 2009 6:32 AM PDT
In reply to: Conundrum

<i>"I'm sorry, I goofed. I meant "color wheel" motor, not fan. Ugh. I can't believe I didn't catch that in the preview post.

...

The color wheel itself may not be spinning in sync, causing that picture artifacting."</i>

Argh! Now it's getting more complicated. About a year ago, I replaced my color wheel - did the install myself and it went in without a hitch. The new color wheel was the air bearing style versus the original friction(?) bearing model. The old wheel was exhibiting the classic banshee scream.

When this Moire issue reared its head about 3 months ago, I suspected it might have something to do with the color wheel, but abandoned that idea when adjustments to the "Index Delay" had no effect on the Moire Patterns.

Color Wheels are $150. Do I go for a second replacement? What are the chances a new (improved model) color wheel would go bad in 9 months?

Any further thoughts?

...Jerry

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Color Wheel
by Samsung_HD_Tech Samsung staff / April 5, 2009 3:19 PM PDT
In reply to: Color Wheel

amendegw,

I'm incredibly apologetic; I just didn't want you to waste your time with fans, as I can't see where that would help anything.

I have no idea on the life expectancy of any particular part. At this point, there are several possibilities on the table, and without looking at it personally, I just can't pinpoint the exact cause. It's likely either the color wheel, or the processing on the board itself. That's as close as I can get.

--HDTech

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