Samsung forum

General discussion

LCD TVs - 120Hz vs 60 Hz ... Is it worth the trouble?

by dagwood64 / January 9, 2011 2:03 PM PST

Bought a Samsung LN40C630K1F because the 120Hz really looked much better in the store than the 60Hz Samsung in the same size/style. Between the comparable Sony and the Samsung, I judged it a tossup on appearance/features/cost and went with Samsung due to reputation.

Since setting it up, I have experienced extremely annoying issues with Soap Opera Effect (SOE) on both broadcast and DVD signals, judder on some broadcast stations, and audio/video sync primarily on DVD inputs (on both BD and std DVD). It is so bad that my 10 year old referred to an old CRT TV in the house as "the good TV". Part of that is likely that we're used to seeing something of lesser clarity so the clarity of this HD set is a bit offputting, but part of it is that the artifacts of the video presentation are quite distracting.

I have been able to overcome the worst of the SOE using some of the tips on forums on this site, but no luck so far with the audio/video sync. It doesn't occur 100% of the time, nor is it specific to standard DVD or BD. This alone may prompt the return of this specific set, but I'm trying to decide if I want to stay with this model/technology or not.

Any iron-clad solutions to either of these issues would be appreciated. However, what I would really love some feedback on is whether these kinds of setup issues are unique to the 120Hz technology. The last LCD TV I purchased was 3-4 years ago (so a 60Hz model), and it was pretty much viewable out of the box. If I were to simply go by the 60 Hz model, would I have to deal with all these setup issues? Is 120 Hz technology so new that all the kinks aren't yet worked out but may be in a year or two? It looks good in the store and all the technology sounds great on paper, but if I have to defect all the 120 Hz features to make it viewable, why not simplify life and just stay with the 60 Hz technology?

Post a reply
Discussion is locked
You are posting a reply to: LCD TVs - 120Hz vs 60 Hz ... Is it worth the trouble?
The posting of advertisements, profanity, or personal attacks is prohibited. Please refer to our CNET Forums policies for details. All submitted content is subject to our Terms of Use.
Track this discussion and email me when there are updates

If you're asking for technical help, please be sure to include all your system info, including operating system, model number, and any other specifics related to the problem. Also please exercise your best judgment when posting in the forums--revealing personal information such as your e-mail address, telephone number, and address is not recommended.

You are reporting the following post: LCD TVs - 120Hz vs 60 Hz ... Is it worth the trouble?
This post has been flagged and will be reviewed by our staff. Thank you for helping us maintain CNET's great community.
Sorry, there was a problem flagging this post. Please try again now or at a later time.
If you believe this post is offensive or violates the CNET Forums' Usage policies, you can report it below (this will not automatically remove the post). Once reported, our moderators will be notified and the post will be reviewed.
Collapse -
Ditto..
by logowriter / January 10, 2011 12:52 AM PST

I recently purchased the same model and am trying to decide whether it's worth taking it back and downgrading to 60Hz as well. Turning off Auto-Motion PLus hasn't really helped much (especially when playing high quality xVid media via the USB input). I've noticed inconsistent audio/video sync as well. I love a crispy sport-image as much as the next guy, but not at the expense of movie-watching (my main use for this screen).

Collapse -
LCD TVs - 120Hz vs 60 Hz ... Is it worth the trouble?
by Samsung_HD_Tech Samsung staff / January 10, 2011 7:34 AM PST

dagwood64,

120Hz is done automatically, so it's not really a point of "trouble", at least in terms of "hassle". The point of 120hz screens is to address the motion response by inserting an extra frame, thereby doubling the frame rate (typically) of the input. 120Hz is also a benefit for movies, since most Blu-Ray movies today are shot in 24 Hz, which is equally divisible into 120Hz (where it is not with 60Hz, and requires a 3:2 pulldown processing).

Most people find those are the main benefits of 120H, and does make a significant difference with response for viewing. That said, depending on how you view this, it's relative. If you'd rather save the money and you don't see a difference, my recommendation is "don't pay for it". But I don't think that's the case in most situations, and I think that's worth pointing out.

120hz processing, as noted by the other poster, changes the cadence of the picture signal and how it is duplicated. While AutoMotion Plus 120Hz is additional processing (since 120Hz panels must at least process the signal to upconvert it to 120Hz, regardless), even when the feature is set to "Off", the picture is still upconverted (but not additionally processed). The level of processing can vary. Good signals need less processing. "Not so good" signals, like VCRs, or computers with entry level video cards may benefit from that additional processing. But I can see where someone might draw the conclusion that "turning of AutoMotion Plus 120Hz" means that they're turning off 120Hz altogether (and thus, losing the benefit of the feature altogether), but that's not the case.

I hope that explains. At the end of the day, I want you to be happy, but I also wanted to inject this into the conversation that people are informed to make the best decision for them.

--HDTech

Collapse -
LCD TVs - 120Hz vs 60 Hz ... Is it worth the trouble?
by logowriter / January 10, 2011 9:22 AM PST

I've done a lot of reading (and watching) surrounding the soap-opera effect since it came up for me; there's certainly no lack of discussion about it online. And I understand the distinction between 120Hz and the auto motion processing, with the later being more responsible for this cheap shot-to-video look in terms of playing back movies.

I follow dagwood64 on the bottom-line issue, however, namely, it "sounds great on paper, but is it actually viewable for all my purposes?". I've experiment with a number of settings with AutoMotion Plus (including turning it off entirely), but nothing results in a watchable film image for me.

The one thing I haven't been able to decipher from my research, however, is whether this is an issue at all with 60Hz screens. Everything I've read suggests it's not 120Hz that's the issue, it's the AutoMotion settings--but I haven't encountered anyone complaining about the soap opera effect on 60Hz screens, which suggests to me that it's at base something about the 120Hz upconversion processing that is responsible, and simply the Auto-Motion settings that make it even worse.

Collapse -
LCD TVs - 120Hz vs 60 Hz ... Is it worth the trouble?
by Samsung_HD_Tech Samsung staff / January 11, 2011 4:35 AM PST

logowriter,

I'm glad you got the distinction. Some people read a lot of posts and either get confused with the vernacular, or plain don't understand that the feature is not the conversion process to 120Hz. I still see posts on a weekly basis where people think they're getting a 60Hz picture if they set the AutoMotion Plus 120H feature to "OFF". So if my post came across as starting "from the entry level" of understanding, that's because I've come to assume that someone might not have enough information, or had received wrong information.

So if disabling the AutoMotion Plus feature still gives you a "soap opera-y" effect, was that adjusted on a different source? (I ask, because AutoMotion Plus has a separate setting for each input, and then another for USB) And have you used the "Tools" button on the remote when playing media from a thumbdrive? If not, try disabling AutoMotion Plus that way.

In the cases of delay (voice vs. video), much of that is how the file was encoded, and may also factor in to the playback or judder. People use the argument that "well, it works fine if I play it in Windows Media Player", but that player also runs circles around the TV when it comes to codec selections, and often, re-encoding the file produces a better result. The caveat on this is that it can be a long process, depending on the file size. The TV will be a little more picky, since the supported formats are limited to the licenses in the TV.

You are correct that people don't often complain on the soap-opera effect on the 60hz panels, but that's because it's not fast enough to interpolate (or insert an extra frame), since most of the consumer electronics are sending the signal at 60hz. Rather, fast motion blur would be the "flipside" symptom that people would be more likely to complain about on a 60hz, which wouldn't be a complaint for a 120hz panel.

I'm assuming your complaint here is just for USB files. So if you're having an issue with other inputs on a 120Hz set with AMP off, I'm not sure why that would be. You could try sending the signal from a Blu-Ray player in "Film" mode, which is 24 Hz rather than 60Hz to see if that alleviates the problem. Both are divisible to 120Hz, so it would change the number of times the same image appears. Most cable/sat boxes, however, have 60hz and that's it.

I've seen many posts here about how turning off AMP solved the "soap opera" picture. And some people are very sensitive to picture processing (although few say that they can't find satisfaction in the settings), whereas others don't notice it at all, or very little. But if you think the AutoMotion Plus processing isn't turning off because the settings seem the same, then maybe it might be worth considering having a technician take a look.

--HDTech

Collapse -
LCD TVs - 120Hz vs 60 Hz ... Is it worth the trouble?
by logowriter / January 12, 2011 4:23 AM PST

I actually figured out the alternate source issue on my own and solved the problem, yes, thanks. I didn't realize that AMP had to be adjusted via the Tools option while playing media via the thumb drive (was attempting to do so in the Menu which is I why I wasn't seeing results).

Collapse -
LCD TVs - 120 Hz vs 60 Hz ... Is 120 Hz worth the trouble?
by dagwood64 / January 10, 2011 3:13 PM PST

Thanks for the info.

As the other responder on this thread asks, are these problems commonplace on the 60Hz platforms? Or, does the 60Hz technology have its own set of issues ... e.g. lag/motion blur?

Any suggestions on the audio/video sync issue? Is this a product of the video upconversion for 120Hz or additional processing for AutoMotion Plus?

The problems I have experienced so far are only with a Samsung DVD player and a Sony BD player. I have not tried a videotape or PC hookup yet.

While I got a great deal on this set, the $ isn't the issue that would cause me to fall back to the 60Hz technology. I just not thrilled with the idea that every time I select an input, I may be forced to tinker with settings to get an acceptable picture. Sometimes broadcast shows look great, sometimes not (SOE, judder) if Automotion Plus is active. Sometimes a DVD has audio/video sync issues, sometimes not. Any suggestions on fixes/adjustments? I would be thrilled to keep the set, if I can render it acceptable for a variety of inputs. And while I'm not thrilled with the notion of continual adjustments based upon input selected, I know that is a non-starter for my wife and kid.

Thanks again!

Collapse -
LCD TVs - 120 Hz vs 60 Hz ... Is 120 Hz worth the trouble?
by Samsung_HD_Tech Samsung staff / January 11, 2011 4:47 AM PST

dagwood64,

Motion blur might be noticeable in fast action on a 60hz, which is the big draw for 120hz panels.

For DVD, I'd be surprised if you were able to get a Motion Blur, since it's a 480 signal. Most of the processing would be on improving the picture than it would be overcompensating for a signal that's already "HD ready".

For the Blu-Ray player, try toggling between 60hz and 24Hz with AutoMotion Plus on "Off" settings. Most Blu-Ray discs are shown in 24Hz, so that coupled with AMP set to "OFF" would have the least amount of processing, which would cause the least amount of soap-opera effects.

The inputs are settings-specific. So if you set HDMI-1 with AMP on "Smooth", and HDMI-2 with AMP on "Off", those settings will stay uniform for that input. So while each input would have it's separate settings, you could "set it and forget it" once the initial setting is saved.

AMP wouldn't cause AV sync issues, at least not that I've seen.

Now, for shows that judder (while others do not), that's a broadcast issue. It could be a signal resolution difference (HD vs. SD, for example), or compression (allowing them to send information with less bandwidth) or time compression (to slightly speed up a program in order to add a commercial). These practices can affect different signals (particularly time compression and how the TV handles incoming frames), and when that happens, you (or I!) don't know, except that it creates a different effect.

So are you powerless against this? No. What you can do if you have a cable/sat box with HDMI is to set the incoming resolution to 720 or 1080i (your preference, which looks better) rather than the default "AUTO" resolution. This will upconvert and streamline all of the shows at one specific resolution, and THEN you can set your TV settings accordingly, since you'll now be working with a more consistent signal.

If you believe that a 60Hz will better fit your needs, it might. Both are great technologies, but sometimes need clarification. Happy

Does that help? Keep me posted.

--HDTech

Collapse -
60hz versus 120hz
by plam04 / November 1, 2011 6:33 AM PDT

Find confusing, to much info, keep it simple, is 6o hz is better that 120 hz, one good reason why?

Collapse -
Let's try simple.
by R. Proffitt Forum moderator / November 1, 2011 6:38 AM PDT
In reply to: 60hz versus 120hz

Some folk want to play those 24p BluRay titles. To to that you'll want the 120Hz HDTV. Why? 120 divides evenly by 24 and 60.
Bob

Collapse -
60 hz vs 120 hz
by plam04 / November 1, 2011 8:26 AM PDT
In reply to: Let's try simple.

All I want is watch tv, regular tv programs and sports, I like watching car racing, so is 60 enough or 120 will be better? Otherwise as I said regular soap porgrams, NCIS per example....and that's about it.

Collapse -
Then either will be fine.
by R. Proffitt Forum moderator / November 1, 2011 8:42 AM PDT
In reply to: 60 hz vs 120 hz

Some folk don't want the extra features but as I shop around, no charge upgrade for 120.
Bob

Collapse -
60 hz vs 120 hz
by plam04 / November 2, 2011 1:19 AM PDT

More I read about tvs these days, more I find it confusing. Where are the old days when we only had one type of tv, and we only had to get the size we wanted. Today I saw the new plasma by Panasonic 42 inches, nice, cheap, but again the choice of 720p vs 1080 p, all are 60hz, no 120 hz, bringning more confusions. I have to find a tv with an audio out so I can connect it to my old Kenwood amp, all other than Samsung have an optical audio out. My choice is reduced to Sony Bravia 40 inches, and Samsung which both have an audio out earphone type. So back to the drawing board, 60 hz, 120 hz, 60hz, 120hz,.....like pealing a daisy to the last piece. YES, not like the old days we had the old KISS, today....well....to old for that ch....

Collapse -
60 hz vs 120 hz
by Samsung_HD_Tech Samsung staff / November 2, 2011 8:47 AM PDT
In reply to: 60 hz vs 120 hz

plam04 -

Collapse -
60hz vs 120 hx
by plam04 / November 3, 2011 1:45 AM PDT
In reply to: 60 hz vs 120 hz

Thank you for your support in this matter, as I said I used the old KISS and I bought a Panasonic Viera TC42PX34. This issue of buying a new TV was draining my grey matter with confused infos. It is not like the old time that a colour tv was easy to buy, the only thing we had to worry about was the size we wanted. This Viera has the new plasma technology, as thin as a LED, 720p, 600hz, and a beautiful picture. Panasonic claims a long life for their new plasma over 60,000 hrs, so at my age, I think that this will last me more than expected.

Collapse -
60hz vs 120 hz
by plam04 / November 11, 2011 12:50 AM PST
In reply to: 60hz vs 120 hx

Whe I received my Plasma TV, this one had the inse glass broken, I returned it to COSTCO no questions asked. The replacement works fine. Is ir normal on plasma to have the inside glass to break so easy? I was told that it is a very sensitive piece to handle and with CARE!I wonder if it is frequent with plasma..if so I have 90 days to exchange it... Just want to play safe beacause we live in an area where there is a quary and they dynamite twice a week, sometime we feel it...I feel I had to ask just ot be on the safe side. Thank you for your comment in this matter.

Collapse -
60hz vs 120 hz
by Samsung_HD_Tech Samsung staff / November 11, 2011 10:40 AM PST
In reply to: 60hz vs 120 hz

plam04,

Popular Forums
icon
Computer Help 49,613 discussions
icon
Computer Newbies 10,349 discussions
icon
Laptops 19,436 discussions
icon
Security 30,426 discussions
icon
TVs & Home Theaters 20,308 discussions
icon
Windows 10 360 discussions
icon
Phones 15,802 discussions
icon
Windows 7 7,351 discussions
icon
Networking & Wireless 14,641 discussions

CNET's Tech Minute

Top 3 news reading apps

With the latest tech, getting news delivered to your phone is easier than ever. Here's a roundup of apps that are customizable and useful for getting the news.