31 total posts
our forefathers and grandfathers worked hard, gave their lives in wars, raised their children, so they could pass along America to their offspring and then obviously it's only right in today's political views that we should just give it all up to the come lately illegal Mexicans. Yes? Can we get an Amen for this?
Yes, the fact that they are here illegally is a problem, but
I don't accept that they are stealing anything which wasn't already just lying around unregarded, meaning jobs which native born Americans wouldn't do, or wages that native born Americans wouldn't accept. The issue is far more what those who manage business allocates to labour costs, than the influx of illegals.
And while they were legal, our forefathers worked and died in sweatshops mines and industries to enrich others, and most of them crawled out of the working class by dint of the War, and Union wages in the 50's, 60's and 70's. America wasn't impoverished by those wages, it was greatly enriched. But management didn't like sharing a class with its workers, and confabulated its own class war, blaming unions for every inequity which their own short sightedness created. Think about the impact of the Volkswagen and Japanese automobiles on the Auto industry. You don't think the US could have produced economical vehicles just as good? But Auto Execs were focussed on bigger, faster, louder, more gallons per mile. The only one with any brains was an immigrant's child, Lee Iacocca.
Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire. Look it up, It will be good for you. Fire Exits locked, no fire fighting equipment, upper floors of the building, and employees, Jewish and Italian girls between 16 (yeah, right) and 23.
I've read that history before
As for the meat packing company, the issue isn't jobs Americans wouldn't work, but slave pay they wouldn't work for. Bringing in the Mexicans then undercut the normal process of having workers and pay scales meeting a compromise. This wasn't the situation of other citizens wanting the job and being called "scabs" but much worse.
What you don't know is Hormel and other companies offer in Mexico wages to those that come, legal or illegal. Once at the doorstep of Hormel, they're not chased away. If the Border Patrol clamped down as it should the word gets out that it isn't safe to come. So, besides Hormel and BP, who do you blame. I guarantee you some white dude is pushing paper and really not super checking the legal status. This happens all too often and its not just Mexicans. For that matter why not send back all those Asians and people of color that get here for educational reasons, then never leave because their skills are so needed. Those are the real high paying jobs, like Drs, engineers, and scientists, go figure. You'll complain about some guy working a meat line that is grunge work and they certainly don't get the big bucks like the white guys before them. Now, all those states that passed stricter enforcement of immigration laws are hard at work trying to find people to fill the jobs. Who complains the most, those companies and if they move, guess what, it doesn't work one way or another. The same thing happens at all the packing outfits. In some cases, they bus the workers, anyone willing to work, local or not. It so happens many locals quit because its just too much, so these aren't the glory jobs but something that pays.
if you want this to stop, then seize the company or generate a stop work order for 30 days. If it happens again, haul off the officers of the company and put them in jail for 30 days. I'll guarantee you, things will get sorted out. -OR- you'll see a new scheme of having sacrifice officers that can be jailed but the super big wigs are safe. But no, they pay politicians the right to get away with it, right now. -----Willy
No love for Hormel here
They changed their formula on chili beans after the gay CEO took over, made it too sweet for my tastes. I've not bought any since then. I get another brand now.
As for your solution, the easier one is to get our country's immigration and naturalization situation straightened out, remove all illegals, strongly fine companies who use illegals, and force them into hiring and when necessary properly training and educating Americans to fill those jobs.
Naive viewpoint at best
So tell me, how many people are lining up in urban Philly to move to rural Nebraska and work in a poultry factory (etc.)? Proper training? No. It's about supply and demand in the marketplace mostly. Also, the wage/income required to raise a family/purchase a home is higher now, hence the higher number of households with double earners. This actually helps reduce the mobility a little too in seeking out new job opportunities.
Actually, a lot of the 'liberal' talk radio hosts make this assertion as well. They try to make the case that there somehow are magic busloads of Americans queuing up to take such jobs in the heartland. Fallacy at best. Truth be told, certain types of basic construction work (e.g. throwing up sheet rock), would grind to a halt in places such as Orange County, CA if it weren't for illegal labor being hired to do the job @ $8/hr. Ditto for other services such as housecleaners/janitors & nannies. Most working couples living in expensive urban areas can't afford to hire a pedigreed caregiver but a less expensive immigrant nanny often fits the budget much better, offering very similar service.
You should really brush up on your economics, business, and perhaps read a little of the peer reviewed Human Resource publications to get a better grasp on this subject and other related ones so frequently discussed by the media (usually, rather inaccurately or very incomplete).
They should advertise more
People in past have moved across states to go work in Detroit at car factories, especially following the Depression. It's naive of you to think they wouldn't still do the same for a decent paying job. In fact, people in droves are now leaving California with no job lined up to move into other states where they have a better chance of perhaps finding one. This has caused the slowest population growth in California since the Depression. I know of one personally who left there to return to Florida to seek work at a previous workplace. It's all over the web, can't imagine how you've missed noticing it up till now. Where have others possibly gone? Could it be to that center of the world called the Dakotas? LOL, nobody went there either till decent paying jobs appeared and now they are moving there so fast they can't keep up with the housing. Your supposition is found to be faulty, when facing the facts.
Rank Population Growth Rate County / Population
1. 85.77% Lincoln, SD / 44,828
2. 14.42% Union, SD / 14,399
3. 14.29% Minnehaha, SD / 169,468
4. 13.98% Pennington, SD / 100,948
5. 13.27% Brookings, SD / 31,965
6. 12.93% Custer, SD / 8,216
7. 11.19% Ziebach, SD / 2,801
8. 11.17% Butte, SD / 10,110
9. 10.53% Lawrence, SD / 24,097
But those jobs are evil jobs
They come from oil and gas. Surely there's a way to implement government protections on the Dakota lands and put those new workers back on the dole where they belong.
Not the whole story
If you paid attention in class (LOL), you would understand that right now, the net flow of Mexicans are returning home because our overall economy has stalled. Those are the actual facts, instead of cherry picking one industry, amigo.
Tougher industries, such as poultry plants, without such premium pay of the oil & gas industries, will obviously have a much tougher time filling positions. Nice try, but again, you need to get out more and read some peer reviewed journals on these issues instead of trolling the interwebs for your "data". Learn a little more about employment mobility, and how it's not as straightforward as you might think regarding relocating/taking new/higher paying jobs.
You mean they are actually
doing what Mitt Romney suggested during the debates......SELF DEPORTING? Oh my.....how quickly it becomes easy to agree with a Conservative Republican when presented with facts.
There are 11M illegals here.......approximately 1M less than believed last year because they have either left voluntarily or have been found to be criminals and deported. However 40% of those 11M are ones who came here legally with visas and never left.........and those who are stopped by law enforcement for a traffic ticket or whatever, if they state that they have a GED or went to school here and are between the ages of 16-35, they are let go automatically on the spot. They don't even have to PROVE what they say. Gimme a break.
As for 'employment mobility'.......call a 'coyote' and watch how fast you can get mobile and cross the border.
A very large portion of
money that illegals earn goes back to their own country of origin for two purposes......a bank account so they can go home where costs are low and live handsomely in early retirement or to support their families that aren't here. They DO pay into our economy......ten to a house or apartment to share expenses, one vehicle purchased to carry seven or eight to a job site and share the gas, fast food instead of real meals cooked in the house or apartment or at a restaurant (I've personally seen workers here buy two hotdogs from a gas station along with a cold drink and go back to work), a couple packs of smokes, etc. They don't contribute anywhere near as much as they take.
Do you think in anything but cliches?
Chinese come, live 10 to an apartment for a year or two, and then go their separate ways, each raising a family and integrating into American life. Some of our own great grandparents may have lived 10 to a tenement flat. Does that make them contemptible or incredibly brave and determined? If we knew the brutal undisguised truth of our families' lives, many of us, maybe most would be shocked and embarrassed. Prostitution was just a step on the ladder of social advancement for many. And Jennie Jerome, Winston Churchill's American mother was the most debauched of a remarkably promiscuous social class. Apparently most of the upper and middle class, and some lower class women took a run at Edward the VII formerly the Prince of Wales under Victoria, or he took a run at them. There are stories here in Canada of the towns on the Prince of Wales' itinerary discretely lining up the compliant, and mostly married women to service the Prince's "needs" while he was here near the end of the 19th Century. You think American women would have been any different?
There's nothing contemptible about sending money to Mexico to help their families, I find it admirable in fact. And having lived in Britain, I can only admire their cleverness in adapting to a different culture. And of course you entirely discount the money they spend in the US, and the work they do which contributes to the American economy, that was the point of the little squib of an article that I posted, which you didn't understand apparently. Don't you remember the moans in the "Liberal Media" for two decades about the destruction of Main Street economies by WalMart, an entirely American exploitative adventure?
That they don't contribute adequately to the American economy is your opinion, unsupported by any evidence. Remember evidence? What you need to make your unexamined prejudiced allegations anything but baseless?
And what about the great influx of the 19th and early 20th Century? The Immigration which made America Great. Don't the same rules apply? All those foul feckless criminal drunken Irish, the criminal, greasy Wops, the Sauerkraut eaters, Polacks and Bohunks and all the other derogatory terms that filled slang Dictionaries. Hackler is German, nichtwar? The former 20th C. slum in Toronto redeveloped after WW2 is still called Cabbagetown because the smell of cooking cabbage permeated the air day and night. The 19th Century slum is now its Financial Centre.
If you want to take a Marxist view of the issue, the owners of businesses derive their wealth from the labour of others, And who precisely do you define as the ineluctably American. Native born in the 50's,or the Teens, or the 19th Century, or the 18th, or the 17th? Who exactly is really American enough for you not to despise them, since that appears to be your reaction to everyone. How long has Ahhnold been here, is he good enough to escape your calumnies? Andrew Carnegie made his millions and then went back to Scotland (Fife actually, where my paternal family originated). Do you despise him for creating much of the industry and wealth that carried the investing classes to their cushy lives and then taking his millions and creating lending libraries all over Scotland, and social service agencies as well? You could research virtually every captain of industry and find stories of great exploitation, and villainy as well as the veneer of gentility. John D. Rockefeller killed thousands through unsafe working conditions in his mines, and oilfields, and by using Baldwin-Felts thugs to break strikes. Not strikes involving just the withdrawal of labour, but strikes involving the miners' refusal to pay exorbitant rent (as in 10 to a room was a necessity), and exorbitant prices at the Company store. Read about the Ludlow Massacre, April 20, 1914. killing from 19 to 25
people, "including two women and eleven
children, asphyxiated and burned to death under a single tent." That made J.D. Rockefeller the most reviled man in America for decades.
I am not a Marxist, but even an idiot can have one idea which is correct. And Marx was no idiot, just profoundly mistaken about the solution to the very real inequities which were his starting point.
Don't be too hard on Toni
She probably saw illegals living like that in a movie.
You are more of an *** than I thought you to be
I actually see it on a personal level in this small town I live in, Josh..........in 25 years, I haven't seen it any other way, unless you count young girls actually marrying a larger number of illegals so they can stay in the country. You see, in MY area, women outnumber the men by nearly three to one because the men have a tendency to leave once they are out of school (drop out or graduate) and gravitate to other areas to work. The drain is palpable and very visible.
I have one question for the three of you........when do the insults end, Josh? Some great scholar somewhere has said that when you run out of anything reasonable to say in a debate, the insults and name calling and cursing begins. With the three of you, those reactions seem to be the first reactions when it comes to me.
RE: the insults and name calling and cursing begins
You are more of an *** than I thought you to be
You may consider my postings insulting, but....
.....I don't name-call. Only you do that.
If you don't want me calling you out on the ridiculous things you post, stop posting them.
I notice that you didn't dispute
any of my claims though........you only chose to agree with someone else and insult me, Josh. If you have nothing to add to the debate by disputing it with your own information, then why bother to post at all? Also do you know that 40% of the illegals here are from countries OTHER than Mexico who have come here on VISAs and never left? AND that they will be allowed to stay because BO believes they help our economy and he wants their revenue? AND that once they are allowed to stay 'legally' with this new bill should it pass would then open the door for them to also bring in family......not just immediate family like mother/father/brother/sister but the entire family, including far-reaching cousins, etc.?
I seriously believe that we need to do what England did for a while.......limit the number of immigrants for a while to slow down the population growth.......at least until we get our out of control spending on domestic social issues under control.......AND stop the stupid 'lottery' citizenship, where 'diversity' was the main criteria rather than education, experience, etc. should be considered.
Or maybe see saw welfare
Stop knocking them.
They've always been good and reliable voters.
Almost as good voters
as the deceased ones. I hear more people are moving to Chicago, hoping for an early resurrection.
If you think about this seriously
instead of spouting your rhetoric that amounts to nothing, you will realize that the majority of the illegals in the work force don't have an education higher than 12th grade since an education in Mexico isn't very important to citizens when they need to feed a family and most kids quit school pretty early in life. Now we will have an additional 11 million uneducated people added to our own barely educated masses because our education system is crapped out as well, and they will all be competing for the same low-paying jobs, which is all any of them will be qualified for. How is giving them the ability to now be here legally and keeping the pay scale down for everyone going to be better for our economy? Oh wait.......I know........the liberals will increase the minimum wage AGAIN in order to 'level' the playing field rather than find a real solution and give a false sense of people being elevated to the 'middle class' when in fact, the bar to reach middle class anymore is a joke when even our poverty level is now at $20,000.
Another myth, but you also say something I agree with
The presence of Mexican labor doesn't alter the pay scale. Again, you & James need to stop getting your data from Sean Hannity and/or the interwebs. A quick trip to a peer reviewed human resources journal or economics database can quickly put that myth to rest.
I do actually agree with you though on one thing you've touched on above. Raising the minimum wage isn't the solution. One of our biggest problems with our economy is there aren't adequate paths to training leading to employment after high school. Unlike places like Germany, which also offers a really good non-academic technical/trades education, we only have two options. We are forced to either find a (low paying) job, or go to a four year university and hope to do well enough to get a decent paying job/enter a career later on. Given the state of our overall K-12 in this country (poor science/math curriculum for starters), it's no wonder so many students flounder in the 4 year college arena.
If you really believe
that data supports your statement that Mexican cheap labor doesn't influence the pay scale, please present it. You are wrong. Most illegals coming from that country are even less educated than you are saying Americans are.......and as long as they will take those low paying, unskilled jobs because they can't qualify for anything else, the labor market will continue to stagnate with pay scales to match all around.
Early retirement in Mexico?
Wow, you really are naive. My guess is, you personally don't know much about the real situation of immigrant workers in the U.S. If you honestly think 99.9% of them are returning home 'rich', you have been sold a bill of goods that stinks sky high.
Question: Have you ever even been to Mexico (not Cancun/tourist areas)? Do you personally know Mexican citizens or naturalized ones here with families back home?
You really like that word "Naive" don't you?
That's the second person in the same thread you've referred to as "naive" all without backing up anything you've said with facts. Do you suffer from megalomania?
You cherry picked an industry above in the thread
I would say you are the one with the blinders on.
Yes, I have been to Mexico
a number of times.....not just in the TJ area below San Diego during my first husband's duty in the Navy, but in other parts of Mexico as well where I could actually see the depressed conditions. However, I also know personally a number of Mexican who are here in my town over the last 25 years.....most are seasonal and work the farms in the summers and work the Christmas tree farms in the winter. Most have also told me that they send money home for two reasons......one is to provide for family there (everything gets sent by Western Union or MoneyGram in cash at both ends). The other is so someone there can build up a savings account and when the worker feels they have enough to live better in Mexico than they would have been able to live there, they leave the USA and go back. Because the US dollar (even though it is devalued due to our Fed Reserve over the last couple of years) is STILL worth far more than their own money in local areas (not the tourist towns and cities), they can go back home, retire from working there, and survive pretty well. This information comes directly from those 'migrant' workers.........and if you don't believe these scenarios and their motives for coming here, YOU are the one that is naive.
I didn't ask for an explanation about currency values
The funny thing is, you seem to have jumped from 'immigrants come here to earn more money' to 'mexicans are returning home to retire rich'.
It's no wonder people here think you might be off the meds at times.
The very fact that you cannot
see the correlation between the two proves that you yourself might require 'attention paying' meds because you obviously can't add one plus one. You can't even have a debate about something without getting insulting.......that seems to be the only thing you have paid attention to since you have learned quickly from the other liberals who can't debate without that attribute.