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Speakeasy

General discussion

Idyllic America Before White Guys Showed Up

by James Denison / January 9, 2013 1:40 AM PST

Yeah, sure. We so bad. We showed up and ruined all the fun.. Meanwhile, back in the pre-white American paradise....

"
"The shrunken head we studied was made from a real human skin,"
Kahila Bar-Gal said. "The people who made it knew exactly how to peel
the skin from the skull, including the hair," she added, mentioning that
it was also salted and boiled.
The researchers determined that the skin belonged to a man who lived
and died in South America "probably in the Afro-Ecuadorian population."
The genes reveal the victim's ancestors were from West Africa, but his
DNA profile matches that of modern populations from Ecuador with African
admixture. There are accounts that the Jivaro-Shuar warriors kept the shrunken
heads as "keepsakes or personal adornments," even wearing them at
certain times. "

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any minute now
by James Denison / January 9, 2013 1:41 AM PST

Diana should show up and tell us how they didn't shrink heads till the whites showed them out to do it. Wink

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I'm not Diana, but I can at least read.
by Ziks511 / January 9, 2013 7:23 AM PST

"The skin belonged to a man who lived and died in South America "probably in the Afro-Ecuadorian population." The genes reveal the victim's ancestors were from West Africa, but his DNA profile matches that of modern populations from Ecuador with African admixture."

What the presence of West African genes means, James, is that the shrunken head was post-Columbus i.e. Post-Columbian, probably 17th century or later, and thus isn't from the pre-Columbian period which appears to be what you would need to justify your argument.

And white folks arrival in North America accidentally destroyed a host of civilizations of great vibrance and complexity. There's a Documentary called 400 Nations, which is a rough guess at the number of separate cultures which arose in North America following the last Ice Age, and before the beginning of the 16th Century.

The point isn't that all was sweetness and light before we arrived, its that our arrival, and our diseases wiped out more than 90% of the original inhabitants who were managing their cultures in no worse way than European cultures with their endless wars of religion. 90% is the conservative number. The population of North, Central and South America dropped from at least 30 million to fewer than 3 million in a space of 30 years. Great and remarkable cultures were wiped out, not by intention, but by the accident of imported disease. Of course the actions of Colonial powers like Spain Portugal and England weren't benign by any means, but their cruelties pale beside the genocide of disease, though that was entirely uninitentional.

Of course the native North Americans had an unintentional small revenge. They introduced siphyllis into the European population.

Rob

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wrong
by Glenda. / January 9, 2013 8:28 AM PST

the Europeans gave std's to the Indians

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Yeah, right. I'll dig up my old Anthropology Professor and
by Ziks511 / January 10, 2013 11:46 PM PST
In reply to: wrong

ttell him he was wrong about Syphilis.

There are a dozen of STDs, only 2 of which were of fatal consideration to Europeans before the age of AIDS. Gonnorhea which was known in Antiquity, and Syphilis which began to be recognized in the 16th Century in Spain following the "discovery" of America. Syphilis used to be noted as the Native American's revenge. I will however admit that I haven't even thought of the issue until yesterday, and new research may have changed the old assumptions.

Rob

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No, You're wrong. Wikipedia on the issue
by Ziks511 / January 10, 2013 11:54 PM PST
In reply to: wrong

"The exact origin of syphilis is unknown.[4] Of two primary hypotheses, one proposes syphilis was carried to Europe by the returning crewmen from Christopher Columbus's voyage to the Americas,"

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that's funny
by James Denison / January 11, 2013 1:30 AM PST

we can easily and openly blame native Americans for syphilis but we won't blame gay people for AIDS, even though it also is "acquired".

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Please note I didn't accuse a group of being "responsible"
by Ziks511 / January 11, 2013 9:28 AM PST
In reply to: that's funny

for anything. They had no control over what diseases developed in their isolated population. I simply reported that it was formerly believed that the Spanish may have brought the infection back to Europe from the Caribbean. I then said that "native North Americans had an unintentional small revenge". In other words they did not act intentionally, nor do we know if syphilis was broadly spread through the Native American population or only present in the Carib Indian population, who died out shortly after contact with the Spanish.

The gay populace isn't "responsible" for AIDS, they were infected by a virus that developed in tropical Africa and which is believed to have originated in the Green Monkey, and transferred to the human population by the eating of "Bush meat". It is unfortunately a sexually transmissible disease, and might just as well have been communicated to the heterosexual populace as the gay one. It was only chance which introduced it into the gay population.

And, in case you haven't noticed, heterosexuals are as likely to be non-monogamous as the gay population.

Rob

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actually
by James Denison / January 11, 2013 12:36 PM PST

both groups could control the disease spread through monogamy and monogany.

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I seem to remember stating that
by Diana Forum moderator / January 11, 2013 7:16 PM PST
In reply to: actually

It isn't a homo or heterosexual disease; it's a sleeping around disease. Most STDs are.

Diana

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Funny, you passed this one up:) You can
by Glenda. / January 11, 2013 2:35 AM PST

find whatever you want on the internet!

http://www.news-medical.net/health/Syphilis-History.aspx

Syphilis History
inShare.0By Dr Ananya Mandal, MD

History has suggested that syphilis is a disease of early times. The disease might have been prevalent among the indigenous peoples of the Americas before Europeans travelled to and from the New World.

"Pre-Columbian theory"
The "pre-Columbian theory" holds that syphilis was present in Europe before the discovery of the Americas by Europeans. The disease is described by Hippocrates in Classical Greece in its venereal/tertiary form.

There are other suspected syphilis findings for pre-contact Europe, including at a 13-14th century Augustinian friary in the north eastern English port of Kingston upon Hull. This city's maritime history, with its continual arrival of sailors from distant places, is thought to have been a key factor in the transmission of syphilis.

The "French disease"
Some historians believe that the disease first made its appearance in the French troops besieging Naples and Italians called it morbus gallicus ('French disease'). On the other hand the French preferred to call it the 'Neapolitan disease' or a disease from the Naples.

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As Zik said
by JP Bill / January 11, 2013 4:01 AM PST

The exact origin of syphilis is unknown

And your response agrees

History has suggested that syphilis is a disease of early times. The disease might have been prevalent

other suspected syphilis findings

suggest, might have been and suspected = exact origin is unknown

you can find whatever you want on the internet!

that's right.

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(NT) That is as conjectural, as is the America "origin".
by Ziks511 / January 11, 2013 9:32 AM PST
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The English called VD the French Disease,
by Ziks511 / January 11, 2013 9:41 AM PST

the French called it the Italian disease, the Spanish called it the English disease. It is typically human to blame an "enemy" or despised population, but that doesn't mean it is correct or proper.

And "Spanish" Flu was first identified in Army camps in Kansas in 1916, and appears likely to have been taken to Europe by the American Expeditionary Force in 1917, and then brought back by American service men who had returned to the US before war's end (perhaps among the wounded or even in the bodies of dead soldiers).

Blame is a common, if useless, reaction to uncomfortable realities.

Rob

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BTW
by Glenda. / January 9, 2013 8:32 AM PST

it isn't siphyllis, it is syphilis

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(NT) Shoot me for typing badly.
by Ziks511 / January 10, 2013 11:46 PM PST
In reply to: BTW
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RE: Idyllic America
by JP Bill / January 9, 2013 11:52 AM PST
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