Samsung

General discussion

Horizontal Lines on Samsung LN-T4661F 46" LCD TV

by Cavette / April 20, 2010 7:00 AM PDT

Regarding a 2 year old Samsung LN-T4661F 46" LCD TV:
Starting a couple of weeks ago, three horizontal lines dividing the screen into four equal bands appear when the TV is turned on. The lines are barely visible on the left side of the screen and become more defined to the right. Along with the lines there is also ghosting that becomes more pronounced from left to right. This used to last only a minute or two at startup, but has now progressed to 15 minutes before the lines and ghosting disappear. Once they disappear, the picture is perfect. If the TV is left off for a couple of hours the lines will return.
Photos of the screen are at http://home.myfairpoint.net/~langhoff/PhotoAlbums/album_1271775431/
Any ideas?
Thanks

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Horizontal Lines on Samsung LN-T4661F 46" LCD TV
by Samsung_HD_Tech Samsung staff / April 20, 2010 3:01 PM PDT

Cavette,

Without being able to actually diagnose the unit, it may be one of your boards has/is going bad. It doesn't appear to be the panel - at least the symptoms suggest that - but the best I can do is suggest having the unit inspected and/or repaired.

--HDTech

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Horizontal Lines on Samsung LN-T4661F 46" LCD TV
by Cavette / April 21, 2010 10:39 PM PDT

Thanks.

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Horizontal Lines on Samsung LN-T4661F 46" LCD TV
by jdmart / June 21, 2010 12:06 AM PDT

Did you ever get a solution to your problem?

I have the exact same issue with the same TV. I thought it might be related to the power capacitor issues common with this TV, but after placing the bulging ones, the horizontal lines remained (though it did startup much better without 30 mins of clicking). My fear is that the two conditions are related - that the poor power "fried" another aspect of the televisions electronics- most probably the LCD as I have replaced the T-CON and the LVDS cable. Though Samsung will pay to repair the faulty capacitors, I do not think they will pay for "collateral" damage as a result of the bad power supply.

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No Luck
by Cavette / July 27, 2010 6:57 AM PDT

Hi - Sorry, I have not resolved this yet. I checked the power supply, and all the capacitors look normal. I have no power on/off symptoms, just the lines.
I've removed and reseated all cable connections with no affect. I replaced my T-CON card - no change. I recently discovered that if I very gently twist the LCD panel, the lines will come and go...so I'm afraid it might be the LCD panel itself. I'll post if I learn anything else.

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Same problem, but with LN52A850
by matthew7899 / August 29, 2010 9:30 AM PDT
In reply to: No Luck

I have been looking all over the internet for someone with the same problem and how to fix it!! I had seen posts about the T-Con board, but didn't think that would be the problem since the picture is there, just not correct. I believe that the issue is with the Voltage Inverters, my model has two...a master and a slave. The next step would be to buy one and see if that is the problem, I just didn't want to spend ~$70 when I'm not positive.

I found this for your model...http://cgi.ebay.com/SAMSUNG-LN-T4661F-VOLTAGE-INVERTER-4H-V2258-001D-/160347427886?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item255573942e#ht_1522wt_1047

Let me know if you ever figure anything out, I will do the same if I get mine fixed.

Matt

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Cavette - Looking for an update
by t.ryanbrooks / September 27, 2010 5:18 AM PDT
In reply to: No Luck

Hey Cavette--

You and I share the exact same problem - I have opened up the back many times to look for bulging capacitors and have found none. Twisting the tv works for me, but unless I hold the tv in the exact right spot, it will revert back to having 3 horizontal lines until it gets past the normal "warmup" phase. I'm willing to play with the tv more, but I wish I had more concrete of an answer i.e. yes, replace the T CON board or yes, replace the LVDS cable.

Anyways, how is your tv doing? Same issues? Any updates/recommendations to share with those of us having similar problems? Thanks

My thread: http://forums.cnet.com/5208-13973_102-0.html?messageID=3283242

e-mail me if you want! t.ryanbrooks@gmail.com

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Also wondering about any update.
by colbj1080 / September 30, 2010 11:57 AM PDT

Same problem, no bad capacitors, any help/updates from those who have this problem?

Thanks

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Problem Solved! (for now)
by Cavette / November 12, 2010 4:58 AM PST

Hi
My problem ended up being a bad TAB bond to the LCD panel itself. See the last photo at:

http://home.myfairpoint.net/~langhoff/PhotoAlbums/album_1271775431/

The problem area is in the red circle. TAB = Tape Automated Bond. The 4661 LCD panel has a couple dozen TAB connections, each with numerous parallel connections. Each TAB connector is just a thin ribbon, and touching the bad one with a non-conducting probe (a chop stick in this case) caused the lines and shadowing to go nuts. Touching the other TAB connections had no affect.

Taking apart your TV is dangerous, and powering it up while it is apart is more dangerous, so I'm not recommending you try this. I did not try this until the TV became unwatchable and I had resigned myself to buying a new one. With the arrival of fall and cold mornings, the lines had become large black areas that would linger through an entire show sometimes.

First, I removed the TV back, then the base (including the plate it attaches to), speakers, plastic bezel & power switch, and side panel jacks (screws only; I left the electrical connection). This leaves the LCD itself. To get at the TAB bonds, I removed the metal frame around the LCD panel. Once the metal frame is off, there is not much structure, nor anything holding the LCD to the backing other than the TAB bonds themselves. I then propped the LCD against a wooden speaker on a wooden floor. I removed the power switch from the bezel and reconneted it to the main board so I could turn the TV on. I also reconnected the speakers just in case the audio output requires a load.

After confirming which TAB bond was bad, I applied a piece of non-conductive foam wrapped in electrical tape over the area circled in red. It was just thick enough to compress the tab bond when the metal frame was re-installed. The picture has been perfect since. Good luck.

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Finally!
by matthew7899 / November 12, 2010 9:54 AM PST

Now, I just have to take the TV apart again and see if I can the same issue.

Thanks for the post!!

Matt

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Removing Metal Frame to Access TAB Bonds
by t.ryanbrooks / November 12, 2010 10:42 PM PST

Thanks so much for this post Cavette. I'm really excited to have the issue identified now. I've thought this was the issue for a few weeks, and I tried to get everything stripped from the tv that I could, but I still wasn't able to get the metal frame off of the LCD. I must be missing a screw somewhere, but I probably wasn't being as thorough as I needed. There were a lot of electrical components (power board and inverter) that I wasn't sure if I needed to remove or not.

Are you guys using any kind of manual guide, or just going with what makes sense when you are stripping the tv? I must get that metal frame off.

Thanks again, Cavette.

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I didn't go that far...
by matthew7899 / November 13, 2010 1:13 AM PST

when I took the TV apart...I was really hoping that the issue wouldn't be too intrusive, guess I will have to strip it back down and go a little farther...I will try to take a ton of pics when I do get around to it.

Will keep everyone updated.

Matt

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Removing Metal Frame
by Cavette / November 13, 2010 7:03 AM PST

You're welcome. I have no manual, but was motivated by a youtube video of a guy who fixed a TAB problem on a Sony by adding material under the frame.

On the 4661F, the metal plate/subframe that the base connects to, and the jacks on the left side of the TV (if I remember right), have screws that pass through the LCD frame that need to be removed. To get at the screws that secure the jacks you have to remove the plastic bezel first. Also, the metal LCD frame uses #1 philips secured with lock-tite that are easy to strip, and it's also easy to miss one screw. None of the major circuit boards on the 4661F need to be disturbed except for the jacks on the left side of the TV.

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Me too
by jdmart / November 13, 2010 8:40 AM PST
In reply to: Removing Metal Frame

I took mine apart and found that it was the highlighted TAB was the issue. I just wiggled it some and then didn't tighten the screw completely that holds the metal frame at that location (tightening brought back the lines). In putting my fingers on the TAB connection, I noticed that this specific TAB was much hotter than all of the rest on the panel. I suspect the that either one of the flourescent tubes or some other source of heat is very nearby causing this connection to fail. In other reading, it seems Sony had a bigger issue with this type of connection and it is not used as often anymore due to its higher failure rate. It is, once again from what I have read, just a hot glue with silver beads to make the connections. The leads are too fine to be soldered.

The question remains as to how long this type of "fix" will hold up. I have found that bumping the panel in this area also tends to help reconnect the one wire that is coming loose. There are a few places around the country that are able to provide a more permanent solution by rebonding the entire connection. Prices looked to be about $150.

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TAB Bond 'Fix'
by Cavette / November 14, 2010 11:55 AM PST
In reply to: Me too

Agree that this 'fix' is a band-aid. All local repair resources reported that bad TAB = bad panel and ~$1000 to replace (there are better TVs available now for less). If you know of a place that rebonds for a reasonable fee please share. Glad to hear you found your problem (and that I'm not the only one)

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One source for repair service
by jdmart / November 15, 2010 3:29 AM PST
In reply to: TAB Bond 'Fix'

Here is one source: http://www.agitechnicalservices.com/tcp-tab-bonding.htm I believe they have a shops in both Pennsylvania and Wisconsin.

They didn't have a price. I saw a price from a similar company in the LA area for about $150. From what I have seen, if your panel is not broken, and you have already checked the LVDS cable and the T-CON board, then this is most often the problem. In fact some think it is the the problem 85% of the time without testing the LVDS cable or the T-CON board. Once again, this was from a source on the internet so take it for what it is worth.

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It worked for me too - and some detailed instructions
by drdjuro / November 28, 2010 3:23 PM PST

Cavette, thanks a lot for the tip!

I took apart my Samsung (lnt4661fx/xac) 46" LCD TV as per your suggestions, applied the TAB bandaid and seems to be working fine so far. The problem used to happen all the time before, and it's been running fine all afternoon since the repair (I powered it on and off many times). Fingers crossed from here Happy

Interestingly, I was unable to locate the "broken" TAB bond. When I took the TV apart and plugged it in while apart to test, it worked all the time. It's as though having it all apart healed the problem. Touching the tabs made no difference, there was no distortion regardless of what I did. Regardless, I applied the suggested padding on a couple of bonds on the side where the problem happened all the time in the past.

I took some pictures along the way and posted here:

http://picasaweb.google.com/DrDjurovic/SamsungLnt4661fxLCDProblem?authkey=Gv1sRgCNSP_4XU-cb69gE&feat=directlink

Hope it helps those brave enough to try this. I'm not an expert myself but I'd say you need to be very careful, there are a couple tricky spots but all in all it's fairly easily doable.

Here are a couple notes:

1) First put the TV screen side down on a flat soft surface and take off the back plastic cover
2) Now take off the speakers, metal plates, side panel and support bars to free up the front plastic panel and the LCD panel with the metal frame. I've highlighted their placement in the picture. I didn't have to take off anything else. I disconnected the front panel power-on and speaker cables because this makes it easier to handle the parts. I did not disconnect the main power supply cable as I didn't want to take off the big metal case around the power supply board. But I was careful to keep the associated plate tucked in safely so it didn't get damaged or loose to damage other parts.
3) This enables you to lift up the main body of the TV (LCD+frame+electronics) and leaves only the plastic front cover with power-on cable attached.
4) Now you need to take off the metal frame from the LCD panel so you can access the bonds. The trick here is that the screws for the frame are on the front side of the TV (while so far you've been working with the front side down). I carefully lifted the TV upright so I could access the front side and unscrew.

5) Once you unscrew the metal frame from the front, the frame easily comes off. You need to be very careful here as the LCD panel is only attached to the main body of the TV via the TAB bonds (exactly dozen in my case) on the upper side of the TV. There are some bonds on the left and right side, but those are more like wings, not really attached. So if you remove the frame and the TV is not standing upright (or lying back, with the panel side up), you risk tearing the TABs off. I would not recommend taking the frame off with the TV lying on the panel side down position (which is how you start taking it apart).

6) Once you take the metal frame off, you can access the bonds so you need to do some testing with the TV powered on in the "broken-apart" state. You need to get the plastic frame (that you took of earlier) close enough to the panel so you can hook the power-on cable back, plug in the speakers just in case, and turn on the TV. See if you can locate the broken TAB by touching them with some soft non-conductive material (remember, the TV is ON powered by high voltage and these can get VERY hot so use caution here !!!).

7) When you locate the broken TAB, apply some padding on it's position on the metal frame so when you put the frame back it presses against the bond and keeps it in place. I used my son's spongeball (hope he forgives me when he finds out :).

Cool Now put the metal frame back and retest to make sure it still works. You probably want to wait for some time before testing to allow the TV to cool down. Even with the original problem before the fix, once my TV warms up and the problem goes away, if I turn it off and back on quickly, the problem doesn't happen. It only happens once the TV cools down.

That's all the advice I could give. If you have questions, feel free to post here. I have more pictures to share if you need more details.

Also: if someone finds a proper fix (a way to replace or resolder the TABs) please post here.

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It worked for me too - and some detailed instructions
by drdjuro / November 28, 2010 3:23 PM PST

Cavette, thanks a lot for the tip!

I took apart my Samsung (lnt4661fx/xac) 46" LCD TV as per your suggestions, applied the TAB bandaid and seems to be working fine so far. The problem used to happen all the time before, and it's been running fine all afternoon since the repair (I powered it on and off many times). Fingers crossed from here Happy

Interestingly, I was unable to locate the "broken" TAB bond. When I took the TV apart and plugged it in while apart to test, it worked all the time. It's as though having it all apart healed the problem. Touching the tabs made no difference, there was no distortion regardless of what I did. Regardless, I applied the suggested padding on a couple of bonds on the side where the problem happened all the time in the past.

I took some pictures along the way and posted here:

http://picasaweb.google.com/DrDjurovic/SamsungLnt4661fxLCDProblem?authkey=Gv1sRgCNSP_4XU-cb69gE&feat=directlink

Hope it helps those brave enough to try this. I'm not an expert myself but I'd say you need to be very careful, there are a couple tricky spots but all in all it's fairly easily doable.

Here are a couple notes:

1) First put the TV screen side down on a flat soft surface and take off the back plastic cover
2) Now take off the speakers, metal plates, side panel and support bars to free up the front plastic panel and the LCD panel with the metal frame. I've highlighted their placement in the picture. I didn't have to take off anything else. I disconnected the front panel power-on and speaker cables because this makes it easier to handle the parts. I did not disconnect the main power supply cable as I didn't want to take off the big metal case around the power supply board. But I was careful to keep the associated plate tucked in safely so it didn't get damaged or loose to damage other parts.
3) This enables you to lift up the main body of the TV (LCD+frame+electronics) and leaves only the plastic front cover with power-on cable attached.
4) Now you need to take off the metal frame from the LCD panel so you can access the bonds. The trick here is that the screws for the frame are on the front side of the TV (while so far you've been working with the front side down). I carefully lifted the TV upright so I could access the front side and unscrew.

5) Once you unscrew the metal frame from the front, the frame easily comes off. You need to be very careful here as the LCD panel is only attached to the main body of the TV via the TAB bonds (exactly dozen in my case) on the upper side of the TV. There are some bonds on the left and right side, but those are more like wings, not really attached. So if you remove the frame and the TV is not standing upright (or lying back, with the panel side up), you risk tearing the TABs off. I would not recommend taking the frame off with the TV lying on the panel side down position (which is how you start taking it apart).

6) Once you take the metal frame off, you can access the bonds so you need to do some testing with the TV powered on in the "broken-apart" state. You need to get the plastic frame (that you took of earlier) close enough to the panel so you can hook the power-on cable back, plug in the speakers just in case, and turn on the TV. See if you can locate the broken TAB by touching them with some soft non-conductive material (remember, the TV is ON powered by high voltage and these can get VERY hot so use caution here !!!).

7) When you locate the broken TAB, apply some padding on it's position on the metal frame so when you put the frame back it presses against the bond and keeps it in place. I used my son's spongeball (hope he forgives me when he finds out :).

Cool Now put the metal frame back and retest to make sure it still works. You probably want to wait for some time before testing to allow the TV to cool down. Even with the original problem before the fix, once my TV warms up and the problem goes away, if I turn it off and back on quickly, the problem doesn't happen. It only happens once the TV cools down.

That's all the advice I could give. If you have questions, feel free to post here. I have more pictures to share if you need more details.

Also: if someone finds a proper fix (a way to replace or resolder the TABs) please post here.

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Great info, one question for you...
by rlimroth / December 29, 2010 6:18 AM PST

I have the same problem you had with my 52" version of the same series set. I was wondering if you felt the problem was caused on part by the fact that it was not wall mounted and created some sort of torque on the swivel stand? It seems that twisting the set on the stand corrects the issue, but only temporarily. This would be my second major repair needed for this set, the first being a new power supply due to busted caps, but Samsung actually covered that repair for me through a local authorized repair shop free of charge. I am not optimistic they will do the same for this issue. Before I proceed, I wanted to get you feedback on how you had the TV set up, either on the wall on using the swivel stand. Thanks.

If anyone else reading his wants to answer as well, feel free. Thanks.

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Not wall mounted
by drdjuro / December 29, 2010 10:28 AM PST

My TV was NOT wall mounted, but on the stand. Let us know if you manage to convince Samsung to cover the repair cost for this. Although, my experience is that real repair (not the bandage fix) would be a new LCD screen or new TV.

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Not wall mounted
by rlimroth / December 30, 2010 3:22 AM PST
In reply to: Not wall mounted

Thanks for the reply. So why wouldn't the repair just be new tab bonds? Why a new lCD panel or all new unit?

I am minutes away from call Samsung to see what I can make happen. I am hoping that since they repaired the power supply on 12/17/09 that they might have a heart an repair this too. A 27 month old TV should not have such major repairs when they should last 10 years. I think these are both manufacturing defects but no way would Samsung admit it. I am hoping that they might make repairs on a case by case basis. Will keep you posted. Thanks.

Next time it's gonna be a Sony....

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Great Info...
by cooljack72 / December 29, 2010 11:23 AM PST

I also have the 52" but mine is wall mounted and doing the 4 horizontal banding thing. Mine is very intermittent so I haven't yet gotten the energy to tackle the repair but I will. Lately it just bands in the lower half of the screen.

"DON'T BUT ANY SAMSUNG CRAP!"

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My 2 Cents on Wall Mount vs. Stand
by Cavette / January 3, 2011 10:31 PM PST

Mechanical stress could be a factor. Obviously, once wall mounted, the TV is going to see less mechanical stress. Our TV is on the stand and we often swiveled it relative to the base, which I avoid doing now. Several other posters have reported failing bonds near the corner of the screen. This makes sense; if you deform a square or rectangular frame, the maxmimum stress is at the corners. You don't see airplanes with square windows anymore! (google de Havilland Comet if you like engineering trivia). Anyway, I've also read that the TAB process is not very robust and manufactures are now moving to better methods. You should not have to treat these TVs with kid gloves.

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More pictures
by matthew7899 / January 4, 2011 8:51 AM PST

drdjuro,

Could you post some more of your pictures, I have taken my ln52a850 apart down to the metal frame around the panel and don't see how to remove that part.


Thanks,
Matt

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Re more pictures
by drdjuro / January 5, 2011 3:23 AM PST
In reply to: More pictures

Email me directly (bsdjuro at yahoo.com) for more pictures. But there isn't really much there once you get down to the metal frame. There are screws all around it, on the front side of the panel in my case.

BTW, since the last updated I posted here "by drdjuro - December 12, 2010 7:02 PM PST" and my reworked fix (replaced the sponge pads with solid rubber), my TV has been working flawlessly!

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Problem Solved
by rlimroth / January 13, 2011 10:45 PM PST

Ok everyone, miracles do happen. An authorized Samsung technician just left my home after replacing the entire display module. What did this cost you might ask? Nothing at all. I decided to give it my best shot, called Samsung directly and pleaded my case. They gave me a temporary extension on my expired warranty in order to process the repair (this set is 18 months past the factory warranty by now) and authorized an in home repair at no charge. The customer support person didn't even blink, she just had her supervisor authorize the work, no questions asked. I had to wait about 2 weeks for the process to complete and the part to arrive to the tech, but that part was easy. I know this defect is frustrating to everyone, but if you call them and take the position of having lost total confidence on Samsung TV products it just might do the trick. Stay calm, be nice and they just might help you out. I can almost guarantee that they know they have issues with this tab bond design and are treating these on a case by case basis. Anyway, my set is fixed and I hope that you have better luck with yours as well. Thank you Samsung for doing the right thing. You are back on my approved product list.

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Miracles
by Cavette / January 14, 2011 8:31 AM PST
In reply to: Problem Solved

Hi - I'm glad to hear you got them to do the right thing. I tried your approach on several calls, but their responses were consistent:

Will you pay for the repair? -NO
Can you provide the part and I will pay the labor - NO
Can you provide a discount or voucher for a new TV? - NO

The people I talked to were professional but appeared to be following a procedure or script. They listened, but were probably coached not to give up anything that would cost Samsung any money. From what I've read, Sony customers with similar problems were treated much better. My next TV will be a Japanese brand.

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they asked me for a review
by maxdog723 / January 14, 2011 10:16 PM PST
In reply to: Miracles

I just got an e-mail from Samsung wanting me to review my tv. I think they're not going to like what I have to say. I have owned many Samsung products over the years, but this experience has made me decide that this MALFUNCTIONING tv will be the LAST Samsung product I ever own!

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Another bad Samsung LN-T4661F 46" LCD TV
by spwalters / February 9, 2011 5:45 AM PST
In reply to: Problem Solved

Just got off the phone with Samsung and after pleading my case:
less than 3 yr old TV
Black lines across top
Local technician concludes ribbon/microchip failure - needs new lcd panel - too costly to fix

THEY ARE NOT WILLING TO HELP AT ALL. I am writing a letter to Office of President Samsung. I am not giving up yet on $2,000 expenditure for TV that lasted less than 3 years. Any other advice on how you got yours fixed or would you let me reference your service requet # or location?

How do we all get together and get some help on this!!!

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thanks :)
by sdritsas / November 5, 2011 12:58 AM PDT

Hi, just wanted to thank you for your post.

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horizontal lines
by jasonb261 / November 21, 2011 11:56 PM PST

I know this is an old thread, but I just performed this procedure last night (11/21/11), and it seems to be working for now. Instead of the non-conductive foam wrapped in electrical tape, I found some 1/2"x1/2" foam weatherstripping on a long roll, and cut it into 2" strips (16 total pieces). This foam just happened to be double-sided adhesive, which helped out tremendously when replacing the metal frame around the LCD panel. The 10' roll of weatherstripping cost me about $4.

This started about a year ago, and I've got a number e-mail correspondences stored documenting all the phone calls I made to Samsung (incident numbers and such). The techs were all stumped. Gotta admit, though, they did try to find me a Samsung repair shop here in Mississippi, and couldn't find one within 100 miles of me, but they weren't willing to do anything else. So hats-off to the industrious folks that figure out this cheap fix! Hope it lasts--helps put off purchasing another TV for a while.

A couple of notes--the screws along the left and right sides holding the back cover in place go through a plastic shaft that seems to have broken off when I removed the cover. There may be a plastic catch or snap in addition to the screws at those locations. Mine broke off, but the back cover was reinstalled apparently fine even without those screws. Also, the small screws holding the metal frame to the LCD panel strip very easily (they're held in place with some form of Loctite. If they don't come out within one or two tries, go find a different size screwdriver!

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