Speakeasy forum


Hillary Clinton Near Death?

by James Denison / December 30, 2012 12:13 PM PST
Blood clot on the brain they are trying to dissolve.

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton was admitted to New
York-Presbyterian Hospital on Sunday due to a blood clot related to the
concussion she suffered earlier this month, reports said. Doctors
treated Clinton with anti-coagulants, with the secretary at the hospital
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Subdural hematoma?
by Steven Haninger / December 30, 2012 6:02 PM PST

Not that uncommon when older adults bang their heads. There's a thinning of some protective layer that happens with age making subdural hematoma/cerebral hemorrhage a threat. The condition may present by having headaches due to pressure within the skull. Pressure is relieved by drilling a hold in it. Older people, though Hillary isn't feeble of body, suffer more falls and worse effects from them.

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(NT) Shall we help James make funeral arrangements?
by JP Bill / December 30, 2012 6:55 PM PST
In reply to: Subdural hematoma?
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Unfortunately for James's headline....
by Josh K / December 30, 2012 10:57 PM PST

.....she's in one of the best hospitals in the country. I live near it. Bit of trivia -- John Lennon's son Sean was born there in 1975.

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inaccurate and not appreciated
by James Denison / December 31, 2012 2:46 AM PST

troll somewhere else

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When you get right down to it
by JP Bill / December 31, 2012 3:07 AM PST

As soon as a person is born...they are "closer/nearer to death".

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You really are as thick as two short planks, James.
by Ziks511 / December 31, 2012 1:31 PM PST

And It's not a subdural Steven, it is an extra-dural haematoma. The brain is covered by a triple layered membrane comprising the Dura Mater, the Arachnoid and the Pia Mater. Bleeding between the skull and the Dura Mater is called an extra-dural haematoma (hematoma) and is far less serious than a subdural or sub arachnoid haemorrhage or haematoma, and those are miles from an intra cerebral bleed. Blood is very harmful to brain tissue which is why aneurysms and bleeds are so harmful. It's also why there are three membranes to protect the brain.

Sec. State Clinton has had DVT (that's Deep Vein Thrombosis) behind one of her knees before. DVT's are the reason they recommend walking a bit on long airplane flights, because the clot may form in the immobile lower limbs and break loose (sort of like a tadpole's tail) and be sent to other organs of the body, the worst of which are of course the brain, resulting in a stroke, or a heart attack.

Ms Clinton has had no neurological symptoms at all, and the clot is not in a place likely to cause trouble. It is in vein, which are the vessels headed back from the intra-cranial space to the heart, not in an artery which are the vessels heading away from the heart.. The clot was picked up on an MRI done routinely following her fainting spell a couple of weeks ago.

She is on standard prophylactic treatment for blood clots, which means anti-clotting meds and careful measurement of her Pro-thrombin times probably every 4 hours or 8 by now. It may take a couple of months out of hospital to get her titrated properly (that is to get the drug levels adjusted to a point where she retains good clotting times, but has dissolved the clot).

So stop celebrating James, as you so clearly are hoping to do. People get through extra-dural haematomas without treatment.


While having a good education in health and healthcare I am not a doctor and don't pretend to be. All of this is my interpretation of the news reports primarily from CNN and Dr. Sanjay Gupta, their Medical Correspondent.

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Here's "johnny come lately"
by James Denison / December 31, 2012 1:40 PM PST

Having no connection to a timeline of what was known and when. Always have to love it when a liberal starts off with the insults, it signals the mind to ignore the rest of what follows, and so I will.

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Gee, posted an hour and 18 minutes after your first post
by Ziks511 / December 31, 2012 1:51 PM PST

and I'm late? I still intend to apologize for my tone, because I didn't know this was a close to home for you as it was when I typed up my response. I should have read further before putting my foot in my mouth.

As to having no connection. I was watching TV and following the updates which you might have noticed had you read the whole of my response.


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Nice job of correcting my guess
by Steven Haninger / December 31, 2012 7:01 PM PST

after the actual diagnosis was later released. Happy New Year! Happy

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I didn't know it was a race, and I was merely posting
by Ziks511 / January 1, 2013 5:57 PM PST

based on what I knew. It was known fairly early, in the absence of any mention of abnormal neurological symptoms that it was extra-dural rather than sub-dural, but I hadn't heard anyone use either term at the time of posting. I was just doing a standard EMT work-up from the information supplied. She wouldn't have been a Code 4 transport, and barely qualifies as a Code 3. Code 4 is lights, siren, and hell for leather. Code 3 is quick transport obeying the traffic laws. Code 2 is a leisurely trip with a thorough history being taken.

Posting prematurely on minimal information, particularly given the press' difficulty with medical information and communicating it clearly and a desire to make everything into a disaster, isn't helpful.

What we knew first. That she was in hospital, that she had been diagnosed with a clot, that she had no neurological symptoms. All of that says Extra-dural. There would have been greater confusion and greater urgency if she had shown some neurological symptoms, but information would have been less clear.

First thing to look for, Unequal pupil size and reactivity otherwise referred to as a "blown pupil". That can be the only symptom, but does indicate something intra-cranial and likely sub-dural. Second, mild or more serious weakness on one side or another. Third, slurring of speech, difficulty finding words for things, or confusion. Fourth, decreased level of consciousness. In the absence of those 4, or any hint of those 4, I said what I said.

I was not repeating what I had heard on the TV except insofar as the clot was discovered on MRI. As I understood it during the reporting, it was from an MRI done earlier that week, not as a result of an MRI done following her admission to hospital. As I understood it, the admission to hospital came after the MRI had been checked and reported.


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A vein blot can be as dangerous as arterial
by Roger NC / December 31, 2012 9:18 PM PST

new blood can't flow in if it can't leave an area.

That was part of my wife's cancer too, one of the lymph nodes turned cancerous was on the vena cava, and as it grew it squeezed it to where her blood pressure dropped because blood in both legs couldn't return properly.

You can't have flow without a supply and a return.

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I believe Hillary's clot was external
by Steven Haninger / December 31, 2012 9:24 PM PST

to the circulatory system in which case the normal breakdown during the coagulation cascade wouldn't take place...or in the same manner. She'd not be in danger of a stroke but could have other symptoms. Often it would be fluid build up and pressure on the brain as there's no extra room in skull to accommodate it....In most people anyway. Happy

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This one says it may not be related to the concussion
by Steven Haninger / December 31, 2012 12:17 AM PST
but possibly due to DVTs

Of course how often have the news media been accurate lately...

The danger would depend on whether or not the clot was within the circulatory system or outside of it. I know there are tests that can be done to determine if a clot has formed and these tests will follow a suspected heart attack or stroke. I believe the one that tells if a clot has formed is called "D-dimer" which must be measured after the clot has formed and the body is attempting to dissolve it. This occurs at the end of the coagulation cascade. An elevated D-dimer result would indicate a clot exists or existed within the arterial or venous system. I don't know if the same would be true for external blood clotting.
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they are guessing
by James Denison / December 31, 2012 2:45 AM PST

The problem was a "concussion". That's what set up my mother's eventual blood clot in brain stem which killed her. She was OK for a couple months afterward except for a "tight feeling" at the back of her head, probably "referred" in nature. The whiplash damage from the fall set up the clot which happened while she was already hospitalized for a stomach condition and had a small atrial fibrillation while there. TSA was administered but after showing initial effectiveness, quit working and they couldn't give more without causing possible hemorrhaging elsewhere, she was already on blood thinners. There's a 3 hour timeframe following a brain clot to open up the vessel again or what part of brain it feeds becomes too damaged, the dying cells then release a toxin that kills other good surrounding cells. It can be a cascading effect. Six days later Mom was dead.

One's head is hit, they take some rest for it, any fibrillation cause a clot, even small one, it breaks loose, travels and may end up in the brain, often in the stem area, causing instant or locked in syndrome, both followed by death or veggie state.

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by Glenda. / December 31, 2012 3:21 AM PST
In reply to: they are guessing

you have a DVT you are close to death. Been there too many times myself. My sister at 57. had one clot in her lung and died. I was very lucky when I had 6 clots in my right lung and survived.

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As you note James, if not directly, Atrial fibrillation
by Ziks511 / December 31, 2012 2:08 PM PST
In reply to: they are guessing

gives rise to blood clots, it also gives rise to fainting. The reason they treat Atrial fibrillation as agressively as they do is to avoid the possible blood clots which may arise.

As noted, blood within the meningeal membranes, which comes in contact with brain tissue causes immediate breakdown of the tissue, and releases enzymes and by products which are very bad for the brain. There are interventions before the bleed occurs, but there are really no completely successful treatments after the bleed starts within a closed skull. Intracranial pressure rises partly due to the volume of non-circulating blood building up, and partly from the breakdown of brain tissue.

The brain stem is a conical collection of nerves leading into the first cervical (neck) vertebra, and a clot or a bleed there is invariably fatal since it interferes with all the most vital primary brain controls for organs and homeostasis (the ability of the body and brain to regulate temperature and blood pressure).

I'm sorry this happened to your Mum, James. If it is any help it is spoken of as a quick death in the neurological and neuro-surgical community.


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Yes, this is probably very serious for her
by James Denison / December 31, 2012 3:42 AM PST

Having seen it in action with people I care for, I'd not wish it on anyone.

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She'd need a leg massager
by Steven Haninger / December 31, 2012 3:55 AM PST

or, at least, compression panty hose. These are made for people with diabetes too.

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(NT) Wonder if this could have been the cause of fainting?
by Diana Forum moderator / December 31, 2012 2:11 AM PST
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I would think so
by James Denison / December 31, 2012 3:17 AM PST

Or could be blood pressure drop when moving from sitting to standing position causing temporary blood drain from brain.

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I do think this is
by James Denison / December 31, 2012 3:18 AM PST

more dangerous than the press has reported, or maybe realized yet. I think Hillary is near my mother's death age of 68.

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I had the impression that the clot
by Roger NC / December 31, 2012 7:33 AM PST

was partly from striking her head when she fainted?

Guess I misread something.

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I saw one report headline that
by Steven Haninger / December 31, 2012 8:49 AM PST

the clot was just in her head. We once used that to mean psychosomatic.

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(NT) From what I've seen Roger, you're right. Rob
by Ziks511 / December 31, 2012 1:33 PM PST
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Other way around, Diana. The fainting may have caused the
by Ziks511 / December 31, 2012 1:37 PM PST

injury which provoked the blood clot. The clot would not have caused her to faint, it was in the wrong place.


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