Speakeasy

Rant

BP Plc gets away with a $4.5 Billion fine. It ain't enough.

by Ziks511 / November 15, 2012 5:40 AM PST

It may be a record fine, but it's chump change to BP, and goes nowhere to helping reimburse the Federal Government for losses it will be paying for for decades.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2012/11/15/bp_gulf_spill_fine_oil_giant_agrees_to_4_5_billion_settlement_with_the_government.html

BP is still liable to civil prosecution and suits.

The DoJ got $8 Billion for illegal business practices from GSK Pharmaceuticals. Why didn't they go for $12 Billion from BP for grossly negligent activity which polluted much of the Gulf shore.

I'm disgusted.

Rob

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RE: Why didn't they go for $12 Billion from BP
by JP Bill / November 15, 2012 5:41 AM PST

Halliburton...Cheney.

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So now you're ok
by TONI H / November 15, 2012 7:09 PM PST

with the total fine they did get hit with now that you know it's a lot more? And Haliburton/Cheney didn't factor into it at all.......wow.......you must be so disappointed.

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And Haliburton/Cheney didn't factor into it at all.
by JP Bill / November 15, 2012 7:22 PM PST
In reply to: So now you're ok

Factor into what?...the settlement or the blame or both?


Please be specific.

Then we'll talk.

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This fine is in addition to the $30B
by TONI H / November 15, 2012 7:26 AM PST

BP had already put up up front, or did you forget about that part? And what monies do you think the Feds shelled out? Considering that BO deliberately shut down all of the Gulf Coast and cost the areas thousands of jobs that never came back, I figure that evened out whatever they might have paid since BP picked up the tab for those out of work and loss of revenue to local businesses that depended on the oil and fishing rigs.

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RE: BP picked up the tab
by JP Bill / November 15, 2012 11:03 AM PST

That was generous of them, considering it's ALL THEIR FAULT.

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Is the fine greater than the economic damage?
by James Denison / November 15, 2012 9:22 PM PST

Seems to me they did a lot right up front to help those affected by the spill, and less came onshore than expected. I'm thinking the fines and help given exceeds the overall cost.

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That's what a fine is supposed to do.
by JP Bill / November 15, 2012 9:25 PM PST

As far as 4.5 Billion...They made 25 billion last year....3 months profit? STOP!!!!you're killing me?

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And they paid
by TONI H / November 15, 2012 9:37 PM PST

nearly 50% in taxes on that profit, just as all oil companies do every year. Can you say the same for Immelt and GE? Stop, you're killing me.

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RE: 50% in taxes on that profit EH?
by JP Bill / November 15, 2012 10:50 PM PST
In reply to: And they paid

that's bizarre....50%?...really bizarre

In 2011

Profit Before Tax 38834.0
Profit After Tax 26097.0


In 2011 they paid approx 33% tax

Did they raise their tax rate in 2012?

Or are you once again just pulling numbers/facts? out of your ****? ( I just put a bunch of asterisks, you can fill in what ever word you think applies)

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I was including
by TONI H / November 16, 2012 12:59 AM PST

all the payroll, state, and city/county taxes that aren't figured into your amount. Your percentage is for Federal Income Taxes only. Don't you think you should rework your thinking?

Since you know so little about our country and how it works, I guess your half-***** numbers are supposed to be fact?

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(NT) I can proivide a link if you want...Can you?
by JP Bill / November 16, 2012 3:11 AM PST
In reply to: I was including
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I don't need your link
by TONI H / November 16, 2012 3:23 AM PST

I already knew that the Fed tax rate for them was a little higher than 30%. And, no, I'm not hunting down the various rates for each payroll tax, state, county, or city tax involved in various areas that each drilling operation is located in since they will all vary across the country. Tuff....you'll have to take my word for it to be around 17% to come to the 50% figure I gave you. If you don't believe me, I don't care.

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RE: If you don't believe me, I don't care.
by JP Bill / November 16, 2012 3:25 AM PST
In reply to: I don't need your link

Perfect................ Because I don't.

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and yet
by James Denison / November 16, 2012 3:30 AM PST

you keep turning to her to seek the truth.

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RE: you keep turning to her to seek the truth.
by JP Bill / November 16, 2012 3:42 AM PST
In reply to: and yet

The Truth shall set you free!!!!!

Praise The Lord!!!

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(NT) No, James, to get her to stop flooding SE with falsehoods. R
by Ziks511 / November 16, 2012 9:37 AM PST
In reply to: and yet
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I'm curious
by TONI H / November 16, 2012 3:49 AM PST

when you were working those six months out of every year, what was your tax rate in Canada? Do people there only pay the 'federal' level or do you also have 'state' and county/city taxes that have to be paid?

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We pay to the Federal Goverment, Deducted from wages.
by JP Bill / November 16, 2012 4:08 AM PST
In reply to: I'm curious

THEY collect for the Federal AND Provincial, for any income.

Fill out 1 Form (4 pages), send it in, the Feds pay to the Provinces

Many years ago they had a "Poll Tax" if you lived in cities...I haven't heard of them in years. Property tax and Harmonized Sales Tax when you purchase certain items (lots of them ) 13% on the price of the item.

You have to use 2 charts (Federal & your Province) to calculate the TOTAL percentage of tax on income

Canada - Federal 2013 and 2012 Personal Marginal Income Tax Rates

Atlantic Provinces 2013 and 2012 Personal Marginal Income Tax Rates

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fpayroll tax I think
by Roger NC / November 16, 2012 7:50 AM PST
In reply to: I don't need your link

is taken out as cost before you figure profit.

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Payroll Tax isn't a Tax on the Company,it's what the company
by Ziks511 / November 16, 2012 9:35 AM PST
In reply to: I was including

withholds from the employee and sends to the Government as payment of the Employee's Taxes on Income. And just what city taxes are we talking about nearly 200 miles off shore? It may be densely populated there, but fish and crustaceans don't collect taxes. Indeed I doubt that State Taxes apply that far off shore, though within the 200 mile limit Federal Taxes do. So you have cleverly vitiated your own argument (that means cut the guts out of). Got any more fiction to retail, cause I ain't buying.

Either you don't understand, which is why you promoted that 47% fictional idiocy, or you just don't wish to make an honest argument. Ignorance or Malice, those are your choices, there isn't a third.

Rob

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Evidently you have forgotten
by TONI H / November 16, 2012 6:53 PM PST

that the payroll tax (actually social security tax) has about 6.5% taken from the employEE but the employER has to pay double that amount....so when the check is cut to the government, each pays an equal amount.

As for the city and state taxes, it makes no different where the actual product is produced, as it is based on the location of the office that cuts the checks. This pdf file pertains to ND, but the rules are pretty much the same for each state: http://www.nd.gov/ndic/ogrp/info/g-015-033-faq.pdf

http://www.forbes.com/sites/christopherhelman/2012/04/16/which-megacorps-pay-megataxes/

http://www.tax.com/taxcom/taxblog.nsf/Permalink/MSUN-8DVR7U?OpenDocument

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RE: has about 6.5% taken from the employEE but the employER
by JP Bill / November 16, 2012 7:41 PM PST
has about 6.5% taken from the employEE but the employER has to pay double that amount...so when the check is cut to the government, each pays an equal amount.

The employER DOES NOT "PAY" double....The employER "gives" the gov 13% made up of 6.5% DEDUCTED FROM THE EMPLOYEE WAGES and another 6.5% FROM THE EMPLOYER.
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Either way.....the gov gets double
by TONI H / November 16, 2012 7:44 PM PST

And Ziks didn't include the employER part in his argument that payroll taxes are on the back of the employEE.............

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RE: Either way.....the gov gets double
by JP Bill / November 16, 2012 7:48 PM PST

It doesn't get "double" it gets 1/2 half from the employee and 1/2 from the employer.

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And that adds up to double the payroll tax it gets
by TONI H / November 16, 2012 7:56 PM PST

that Ziks didn't allow for with regard to oil company taxes it pays. Stop being an idiot.......I have still debunked your 33% and you have no wiggle room left

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RE: I have still debunked your 33%
by JP Bill / November 16, 2012 8:09 PM PST
I have still debunked your 33% and you have no wiggle room left

THIS is how YOU debunk something?

Tuff....you'll have to take my word for it to be around 17% to come to the 50% figure I gave you.

Take YOUR word for it?

More of your statements in this thread.

And they paid nearly 50% in taxes on that profit,

I already knew that the Fed tax rate for them was a little higher than 30%


You already knew?...what's with the 50% figure you posted first?

Just to refresh your short term memory.

In 2011

Profit Before Tax 38834.0
Profit After Tax 26097.0

In 2011 they paid approx 33% tax
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RE: And that adds up to double
by JP Bill / November 16, 2012 8:38 PM PST

1/2 and 1/2 adds up to double?

Double what?

NO...It adds up to 1

In 2011

Profit Before Tax 38834.0
Profit After Tax 26097.0


Investopedia explains 'Profit'
Profit is the money a business makes after accounting for all the expenses. Regardless of whether the business is a couple of kids running a lemonade stand or a publicly traded multinational company, consistently earning profit is every company's goal.

Payroll TAXES are a TAX and classified as an Expense.

Are you sure you worked as an bookkeeper/accountant?

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Good. By the way, don't all Oil Companies get Oil Depletion
by Ziks511 / November 16, 2012 9:21 AM PST
In reply to: And they paid

Allowances from the Federal government and various other breaks. My uncle the oil man used to chuckle over them when they came in. But he was an Oil Man and a Republican. He thought it was hilarious that the people paid for the gas, and then some of their tax dollars came back to him from the Federal Government.

The other thing about this issue, is what are the lives lost on the rig worth? What is criminally negligent use of known defective equipment worth? What is the long range damage not just to the shore and the wildlife, but to marine life from the toxic substances that floated in strata in the Gulf, and for all I know still does killing fish contaminating crustaceans? Shrimping is the big industry for most of the Gulf States; we won't know the real cost of the spill for a decade or two, so I'd suggest that counting the cost now is just a little premature. Not to mention short sighted, which could be said to cover most of your opinions, Toni and James.

It's nice that there are only two hands flapping on the wrong side of this issue.

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A few debunkers for you
by TONI H / November 16, 2012 7:08 PM PST
http://www.tax.com/taxcom/taxblog.nsf/Permalink/MSUN-8DVR7U?OpenDocument

As for lives lost due to defective equipment............there have been far fewer deaths from oil rigs accidents than there has ever been due to drunk or high employees on an auto assembly line who cause deaths due to negligence or faulty parts (think RECALLS) and yet nobody bothers to shut down that industry for safety reasons.

http://iadc.org/asp.htm The industry frequency just in the last five years actually shows Canada to be much higher than the USA incident rate....... http://iadc.org/asp/documents/FiveYearWebSite.pdf
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everyone keeps referring to drunk auto workers
by Roger NC / November 16, 2012 10:32 PM PST

I don't know how bad the auto plants were, or are now.I remember some of the news stories of workers drinking during lunch in the past. I suspect now is a lot different than 20 years ago, or even 10 years ago.

I work under a union contract, but they're pretty serious about alcohol and drugs. We, like most employees now, have to take random drug test. Our alcohol level for dismissal is .04%. Now I know some would say any level is too much, trigger levels are debatabe. Note that can result in immediate dismissal. I do know it's not automatic, but at least it's suspension until rehab is certified successfully completed. It has resulted in suspension and review then dismissal, particularly if repeated.

Any injury requiring more than first aid, that is a doctor visit, also requires drug/alcohol testing. Any accident with mobile stock (fork lifts, bulldozers, trucks) triggers drug/alcohol testing. There is a level of seriousness there, I'm not sure exactly what it is. Bumping a post etc may not require testing. Serious property damage does, as does any personnel injury no matter how slight.

Any positive test results for alcohol, narcotic class, or amphetamine class of drugs results in a retest and suspension. We do get a rehab chance. Even if you have a prescription with you when you take the test, you have to stay home until further test prove the positive results is for the exact drug you're prescription is. We do get paid regular pay missed when the test proves it's for the drug prescribed by your doctor.

Of course, there are some prescription drugs at some levels that you still can't work due to impairment until you get off the drug. That is generally based on the doctors fitness to work report you have to bring to the company anytime you've been out of work for more than 4 days due to illness. Depending on why you were out, after your doctor releases you for work, you may have to see the company doctor, and perhaps also take a physical fitness test by a physical therapist.

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